at least we got saddam and his sons... :(

[WingZ]

Canada owns more of the US than any other foreign country. Canada regularly has people in it's Parliament call Bush "stupid" or "idiot" ( gotta listen to the BBC news on the radio it's hilarious ). Canada listens to it's people. They just said "No". Canada has a large Muslim populace maybe they didn't want to cause themselves internal strife. Canada goes to the left of the US quite often. When I was in Vancouver I saw all sorts of anti Bush grafitti and yet the people were all very nice to my wife and myself. I was astounded at their ability to see the difference between a government and it's people. I know none of this has anwsered your question ,but I honestly think that since we borrow money from them the power of decision is ultimately theirs..kinda like with China:biggrin:

 

[LJSB]

Ever tried it? You might be pleasantly surprised. For one thing they don’t have inappropriate aggressive posters like the one you posted above with the snake and that aggressive logo.
That’s a good thing, BTW.

That poster is our flag and the rattle snake/ slogan from our
revolutionary war. "Don't Tread on Me" was first seen like this:

It has been a slogan the U.S. military has used and carried with us in various forms since.

 

[jond]

At least we got the single remaining terrorist who attacked us.
Oh wait, no we haven't.

This is Bush's true stance on terrorist:

15. "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." —Washington, D.C., Sept. 13, 2001
14. "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." —Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002

 

[|Adeel]

Canada.
Once they figure out where it is…

You know, usually I only write "lol" and smile. But this time is really was a LOL :biggrin:

 

[LJSB]

Maybe some of the new politicians that were recently put into office will change the course of our country and do what pleases those who are malcontent.

If they don't, at least you'll have someone you can blame for years to come.


-----------------------------------
|Adeel and 710,
We found your countries when it counted.

 

[710]

That poster is our flag and the rattle snake/ slogan from our
revolutionary war. "Don't Tread on Me" was first seen like this:

It has been a slogan the U.S. military has used and carried with us in various forms since.

Yes, I know.:smile:
Do you know a Belgian slogan. No? A British one? A Dutch one? German? Canadian even? Any other?:biggrin:

I guess all children in the US are taught from an early age to recognise their slogans from its history, and many are aggressive. Probably the most well known one to any American kid is the “Don’t Tread On Me” slogan which is thrown up as in a knee jerk reaction that Americans consider acceptable because it is part of their history. All American kids really learn this one, which is sending them the wrong message and setting them up for a conflict filled life. Bush believed it when he was a kid.
You are kind of like the Palestinians, Iranians and others teach their children their own slogans such as “Death to Israel and America”, they say it without thinking.

And the slogan is really saying “don’t f*ck with me or I’ll kick your ass (or bite it…)” during a situation where we have to ask who is actually getting the ass kicking here.
Talk about absurdity. Or is it self propaganda? Or self brainwashing of Americans when they are/were children?
And its not the first time, its not an isolated instance. It’s becoming the norm. Heard of the War of 1812? Korea? Vietnam? And other smaller conflicts like Beirut and Mogadishu? Jeez, the Americans even got kicked out of Cuba. Did you know that Canadians and Europeans and every body else can just go to Cuba on holiday, hardly even have to get a visa. But Americans can’t. Is that “kicking ass? (Referring to the slogan again)”

And I know the “Peace the Old Fashion Way” post was being sarcastic, my point is that aggression and violence seem to be deep rooted in the American psyche without them even knowing it. And therefore it always seems acceptable to them. Solving problems with conflict like Bush and Co. tried.
Maybe that’s why Americans need so many police on the streets. I know no other country with so many police in action stopping and busting people all the time.

The difference is that Canadians and Europeans and most others don’t teach their children aggression (and aggressive slogans). They teach their children that in conflict you get a bloody nose.

Maybe this is the reason Americans seem so combative, their children are brought up learning it. In that case we are in for a few more wars and American bloody noses.

It is a pity, because if the Americans had gone into Iraq to secure oil, and not had delusions based on heroic slogans, (or based on ignorance of the small world they live in, as seems to be the case), maybe under US control the price of oil could be drastically lowered (to friends only, of course…) and start a world economic boom and there would be a lot less than 700,000 deaths.

The Americans would have been heroes.
Because believe me, even though we are all shaking our heads in laughter and pity about the current debacle in Iraq, we would like very much for the Americans to be our heroes.:smile:

 

[LJSB]

Yes, I know.:smile:
Do you know a Belgian slogan. No? A British one? A Dutch one? German? Canadian even? Any other?:biggrin:

I guess all children in the US are taught from an early age to recognise their slogans from its history, and many are aggressive. Probably the most well known one to any American kid is the “Don’t Tread On Me” slogan which is thrown up as in a knee jerk reaction that Americans consider acceptable because it is part of their history. All American kids really learn this one, which is sending them the wrong message and setting them up for a conflict filled life. Bush believed it when he was a kid.
You are kind of like the Palestinians, Iranians and others teach their children their own slogans such as “Death to Israel and America”, they say it without thinking.

And the slogan is really saying “don’t f*ck with me or I’ll kick your ass (or bite it…)” during a situation where we have to ask who is actually getting the ass kicking here.
Talk about absurdity. Or is it self propaganda? Or self brainwashing of Americans when they are/were children?
And its not the first time, its not an isolated instance. It’s becoming the norm. Heard of the War of 1812? Korea? Vietnam? And other smaller conflicts like Beirut and Mogadishu? Jeez, the Americans even got kicked out of Cuba. Did you know that Canadians and Europeans and every body else can just go to Cuba on holiday, hardly even have to get a visa. But Americans can’t. Is that “kicking ass? (Referring to the slogan again)”

And I know the “Peace the Old Fashion Way” post was being sarcastic, my point is that aggression and violence seem to be deep rooted in the American psyche without them even knowing it. And therefore it always seems acceptable to them. Solving problems with conflict like Bush and Co. tried.
Maybe that’s why Americans need so many police on the streets. I know no other country with so many police in action stopping and busting people all the time.

The difference is that Canadians and Europeans and most others don’t teach their children aggression (and aggressive slogans). They teach their children that in conflict you get a bloody nose.

Maybe this is the reason Americans seem so combative, their children are brought up learning it. In that case we are in for a few more wars and American bloody noses.

It is a pity, because if the Americans had gone into Iraq to secure oil, and not had delusions based on heroic slogans, (or based on ignorance of the small world they live in, as seems to be the case), maybe under US control the price of oil could be drastically lowered (to friends only, of course…) and start a world economic boom and there would be a lot less than 700,000 deaths.

The Americans would have been heroes.
Because believe me, even though we are all shaking our heads in laughter and pity about the current debacle in Iraq, we would like very much for the Americans to be our heroes.:smile:

I learned many things in school some 30 years ago and I think you are being harsh on my country and it's "psyche" with your rant.

Since you like bringing up our history here's a page you might remember.

19,000 United States soldiers died freeing your country at the Battle of the Bulge. Tens of thousands more were wounded. That was their "Holiday" (Dec-Jan) not sunning in Cuba.

How inappropriate!

 

[rickysals]

I had personally never heard the slogan.

I hate war and how easily we consider it.

My views on the military would infuriate some people here so I'll leave them out. Lets just say I think we spend too much time/money/energy on it instead of other things that matter.

 

[710]

Since you like bringing up our history here's a page you might remember.

19,000 United States soldiers died freeing your country at the Battle of the Bulge. Tens of thousands more were wounded. That was their "Holiday" (Dec-Jan) not sunning in Cuba.

How inappropriate!

Facing facts and learning from them is never “inappropriate”. Discussing past experiences to learn from them is never dishonouring the fallen. Quite the contrary, they would want us to be discussing this so it doesn’t happen again.

Sorry Pbassjo, but Norway was not liberated by the Americans. It was the British. Yes the Americans liberated Belgium, Luxembourg and France.
While everybody is grateful, it doesn’t mean we blind ourselves to the real history about any war or the Battle of the Bulge. We need to look at things realistically if we hope to make the right decisions next time.
For example:
It’s not the Belgian’s fault that brave soldiers died in the Ardennes, tragic that so many young people died in that war. We humans have too many wars.

But only the Americans learn at school that it is called the “Battle of the Bulge”.
And only the Americans learn that is was heroic.

It wasn’t heroic. The Americans learnt that from that terribly inaccurate movie.

Everyone else calls it the Von Rundstedt Offensive and it was one of the biggest defeats of the war for the Americans after Pearl Harbor.
Humiliating at the time and for many years after the war. A real shock.
Older people here can remember the Americans dropping their guns and running terrified.
After ignoring reports of a German build up and ignoring their allies advice that the Germans had attacked two times before there with shocking effectiveness, they left a area open and weak which the Germans attacked. The Americans should not have done that, it is an easy sector to defend.
Don’t believe the movie about “green troops” “heavy German armour” and all the music etc. The terrified US soldiers trapped there had no music.
Try to study history, not watch it from a Hollywood film. The Germans damn near split up the western front. They caused some 80,000 casualties. Disgraceful that we let that happen.
The US incompetence there (not mine or yours, I wasn’t even born yet and neither were you) was responsible for that, and it delayed the end of the war by six months allowing the Russians to overrun Eastern Europe which we now have to pay for and clean up for the next 100 years.
If the Americans hadn’t screwed up that battle so bad, the Allies would have been in Berlin and Poland and Hungary and Czechoslovakia and some of the Balkans before the Russians. Most of Eastern Europe would not have been Russian and communist and messed up beyond belief.

I’m sorry you find it harsh and I’m not discrediting the efforts of all the soldiers that died in the Ardennes, but in order to win any new wars (like Iraq, Korean, Iran, Canada:wink: ) you will have to start teaching yourself and your children the truth, not gung-ho movie history, or self blinding propaganda about how righteous and invincible the Americans are.
Study your weak points, there is no shame in that.

Reality is harsh. Bush is finding out that at this very moment.

If he had not seen that movie, but instead really learned how all war is one f*cked up move after another, then he might have not attacked in such a wasteful way. If he had considered the possibility that he might loose he would have done a better job. If he had listened to France, for example, he may have learnt something.

Discussing history in order to avoid repeating failures is not “inappropriate”.

Sorry, I’m not flaming you, you have good posts. But you are not right.
Nobody is.

 

[H-carWizKid]

OK smart guys-

Any idiot can point a finger, how about some solutions to the problem?

Riddle me this...

How does the United States resolve the War in Iraq?

Lay out an action plan without further consequence for Iraq, or American troops.

Remember- Iraqi's have to be better off than they were before the war, and "we should never have gone there" is not a viable answer (unless you also include the plans for your time machine).

I look forward to your responses.

 

[WingZ]

OK smart guys-

Any idiot can point a finger, how about some solutions to the problem?

Riddle me this...

How does the United States resolve the War in Iraq?

Lay out an action plan without further consequence for Iraq, or American troops.

Remember- Iraqi's have to be better off than they were before the war, and "we should never have gone there" is not a viable answer.

I look forward to your responses.

And apparently any idiot can and did start a war. There's no such thing as "without further consequences for Iraqi's or American troops" I honestly wish there was. No magic bullet. Our best and brightest did the Baker/Miller report and that's basically been tossed aside.

Here's an idea that I'm sure you all will cause you all to flame me w/o mercy. How about we leave Iraq and let them settle it? I mean the same people who told us they had WMD's are the same one's saying we can't leave. They haven't been right yet so why do we still consider what they say valid? I mean the Iraqi's are killing themselves with us there anyway. People have to want peace on their own to achieve it. So maybe w/o us there they'll get serious ( about something other than killing each other ).

Oh and 710 the Americans who invaded Iraq are Europeans. Just because Europeans sail across the ocean doesn't make them any less European. Europeans brutalized and killed the real Americans almost to the point of extinction. I believe your intentions are honest and that your cousins can be pretty barbaric ,but they are still your cousins:wink:

 

[LJSB]

You assume too much about me in regard to what I think, what I was taught, and what I have learned. What I think of war you do can not know, I have not said.

It is clear from the most cursory of Internet searches that your fellow countrymen do not share your opinion of the United States Soldiers that fought, bled, and died in your country.

The Germans damn near split up the western front. They caused some 80,000 casualties. Disgraceful that we let that happen.
The US incompetence there (not mine or yours, I wasn’t even born yet and neither were you) was responsible for that, and it delayed the end of the war by six months allowing the Russians to overrun Eastern Europe which we now have to pay for and clean up for the next 100 years.

Said Belgian Ambassador Francis Van Daele in DEC. 2004 to a U.S. group of Battle of the Bulge veterans :
“We are grateful for what you did to liberate our country 60 years ago,” the ambassador said. “It was important the Germans were stopped. If the Battle of the Bulge had not been won, the Germans would have occupied us another year.”

Sorry we didn't meet your deadline 710. I'm sure if you had been around you could of done better but the facts are:

The Americans incurred about 80,000 casualties—19,000 killed and 15,000 captured; British casualties totaled 1,400. German losses totaled approximately 100,000. Each side lost 700 tanks. The counteroffensive delayed a final Allied offensive against Germany for six weeks , but in expending his last reserves, Hitler had crippled the defense of Germany on both eastern and western fronts.

I love the fact that you complain about the job done. Our tough luck you weren't around to show everone how to do it right, huh?
You would have much more help than Patton's Army. Much more "appropriate".:biggrin:

You complain

we now have to pay for and clean up for the next 100 years.

Poor baby. I'll just bet your doing your share too.


Belgium Ambassador Van Daele went on to tell how individual Belgium families have adopted the custom of caring for American graves in the area around the battlefield.

God Bless them and shame on you.

I don't care if you like my posts or not.

 

[H-carWizKid]

Here's an idea that I'm sure you all will cause you all to flame me w/o mercy. How about we leave Iraq and let them settle it? I mean the same people who told us they had WMD's are the same one's saying we can't leave. They haven't been right yet so why do we still consider what they say valid? I mean the Iraqi's are killing themselves with us there anyway. People have to want peace on their own to achieve it. So maybe w/o us there they'll get serious ( about something other than killing each other ).

Again- Pointing fingers solves nothing. We are already there, this isn't about restating mistakes, it is about making the right moves to end the conflict.

You are right about one thing though- there is no "magic bullet" no "quickie fix".

If we "just leave" - There will be consequences for the innocent citizens of Iraq that we leave high and dry without protection. If we do that after tossing their nation into upheaval there will be severe sanctions from our fellow members of the UN, and our allies in the Middle east- not to mention encouraging the terrorists of the world to take more action against our citizens.

Sorry, that plan screws all parties involved. Back to the think tank now. Think globally, and long term. Anything short of that is STUPID because if you are unable to predict the future exactly, then someone will always second guess your decision.

Not as easy to solve the problems of the world as it is to point them out is it?

Well guess what? That is what folks like you, the whole world over do to the President EVERY DAY, with every move he makes.

Not an enviable position is it?

What you CAN do is wait till it's time to vote again. That is when you have the opportunity to make your feelings known.

Oh, and BTW- whoever gets voted in next time- He/She? will be a F#@k up when it comes to the war in Iraq too. This is because the American populace as a whole has a sitcom attention span where everything has to be resolved in 40 minutes plus commercials.

I am hoping you are coming to grips with the fact that there are no one-term short answers to this problem except to look for opportunities as they present themselves. That takes time.

Since Allah isn't going to come down and negotiate on the part of the extremist factions that we are at war with, it is a safe bet that we are in this for the long haul no matter who is in office. The difference will be that the next President will be able to lay the blame for their own incompetence at the feet of the Bush Administration.

The fact remains: What is done is done, what we need now are ANSWERS. Anything else is just whine.

I hope you understand- WingZ this isn't to flame you directly, it is for any and all who think there is a simple solution to this issue. I am no Bush supporter, (far from it in fact) but I am sick and tired of people needling the problem without suggesting a solution.

When it comes time to vote again- please ask your candidate how they see this war being resolved. Think long term, and think about consequences beyond tomorrow, next week, or even the next year.

Short term thinking got us into this, only long term thinking can get us out.

Philip

 

[ericwgnsx]

Belgium. HA! What has Belgium or most any other "non agressive" (wimpy)European nation done to confront evil around the world? You scold the US for ridding Iraq of a brutal dictator that killed hundreds of thousands (is that the European idea of peace???), yet I'm sure you think the US needs to "do something" in Darfur. Here's an idea... why don't Belgium, France, and other like-minded countries get together and try doing some of the heavy lifting for a change? Then when it all goes to hell, we can criticize you.

 

[rickysals]

This is a problem we shouldn't have to solve.

Personally I think Bush should be impeached.

Clinton was impeached after doing many good things for our country for trying to get laid. Bush has done nothing to advance this country, has failed to defend it against terror, and everyday is neglecting the problems in this country while defending an unfounded war that he cannot win. Bush is a million times worse than Clinton ever was.

It's funny that the same party who wanted Clinton out for something relatively minor in the course of the responsibility he has, and a president who got the country into pretty good shape... are the same people defending this president.

Answers?? I don't think there is one right now. Who's fault? Bush.
I don't feel mercy on him at all, he got us into this, and he needs to get us out. It's not my responsibility, or anyone on this board to solve the problem... it is his... it's kind of his job. I won't hold my breath for his plan.

I hope history judges him accordingly.

My answer is impeach Bush/Cheney and get someone in there who has our priorities above his/her own.

 

[710]

How does the United States resolve the War in Iraq?

.

Maybe by doing the job right. Nobody likes half ass work.

3 options, right?:
--Get out now. Be ridiculed by the world
--Stay in half assed like now, be ridiculed by the world
--Do the job right.
Since you are already in there, send in two million or three million more troops and two million contractors (too late now to complain about the ramifications back home).
Take control of the situation instead of cowering ineffectively in camps and behind armour.
Pay attention to the Brits, they have somewhat more experience in calming these situations down. Take and follow other’s advice instead of being arrogant.
Fix/recreate/build the country’s infrastructure. You will have to guard every foot of pipe, every foot of electric line. You will have to develop new designs of infrastructure, (safe, failsafe, hard-to-blow-up stuff) and that new technology will eventually be a good thing for the world and you will be the world leaders in it, not a bad thing for business profits.
Take 10-20 years to do the first part before even thinking about pulling out. If you could read history, you would see that it took the colonial powers much longer to set their places up. 10-20 years is peanuts in a job like you took on.
Start teaching Iraqi (or main languages) and Arabic in all US elementary schools (make it a requirement) so in five to ten years there would be Americans who can function over there.
Start teaching Arabic culture instead of “Don’t Tread on Me “slogans in your schools. Then you will have people that understand the culture in oil-land. Pretty important, don’t you think?
Start at the same time to teach in your elementary schools Iranian language and culture, and N. Korean. The way most Americans sound, it sounds like you will need it. Start teaching it in the poor parts of the US so the poor will have something very valuable in the next 5-10 years and won’t end up as grunts on the front line.
Buy a world map.
Start pumping oil, reducing the price, hopefully, and stimulating the world economy (assumption).
In ten years a whole new generation of young Iraqis will be old enough to start running the civil service etc. They will have been educated by the 1000 new schools and universities you built and guard (again, don’t complain about the cost and ramifications back home, it’s too late for that, you should have thought about that while you were all gung-ho about taking on this job, against the knowledgeable advice of almost all other civilised countries. Including little Belgium, ericwgnsx).

Also, great powers have traditionally been very successful when they use mercenaries (again, try reading some history). Some have almost exclusively used mercenaries. Turn that in a modern way, and after 10-20 years of setting up Iraq, you could have soldiers (Iraqi) to invade your next country and not complain when they break a fingernail. Could be an effective military tool because men on the ground is what you need to take control of the next place.

Maybe you could break even on oil
Remember, in history, the winners/successful write the books. You could write it the way you want.
At the very least you would have a very big base in the Middle East where the oil is. You would cause Iran to get nervous and quiet down, toe the line.
I bet even N. Korea would be talking to you on your terms.

Over the next 10 years you would learn how to be a real world power. Instead of an elephant in a glass shop, like now.

The US would be seriously effective and I sure as sh*t wouldn’t be writing like this anywhere!

Basically, since you are already in there, why not do the job right?

 

[minervoflorida]

Solution for the war.

Do what the Baker reports states. There is no real win on this mess Bush put us in.

Where were all the voters on last election, how did he get in a second term, amazing how stupid the public is and believes the spin the Repubician party puts on everything.

Bush and his admin. IS the worst prosident we have ever had.

How about the 30,000 soldiers that were wounded, they are having their arms and legs blown off.

An the fighting solders are taking drugs to sleep and then drugs to stay up and fight, i read some recent articles on this and the wounded, very sad.

 

[710]

You assume too much about me in regard to what I think, what I was taught, and what I have learned. What I think of war you do can not know, I have not said…

pbassjo sorry for assuming.
I do not intend to flame you or specifically your posts. I only comment on the subject of this thread and some of the posts, of which yours with the rattlesnake was one.

I never said I represent Belgium or the Belgian view. You assumed that because I live here. I enjoy living here. It is good place, with nice people with views much more calmer and sensible than mine. And I would expect the ambassador to say those things with sincerity.
But I would not assume to represent the Belgian view. Only my view.

War graves from many wars in Belgium and all over Europe are well cared for, including the American ones. Even the German ones are equally cared for. I have also cared for war graves as part of a local volunteer organisation.

Because I have shame, as you said.

Shame that this sh*t happens all the time and keeps happening, not here anymore thank god, but with lesser developed and lesser educated countries being involved.

I have also cared for the grave of my grandfather who is in a war grave in England. Cared for it together with my then living Grandmother, his wife.

I have also spent hours and hours with a friend whose grandmother was Jewish (from Holland) and had her entire family wiped out in the war. His grandfather (her husband) was German and in the German army during the war. Even these many years afterwards, my friend is severely discontented and confused about his family. That is what war does.
I have a friend from Kosovo who had his family wiped out in front of his eyes. In a field. He also thought invading Iraq was going to be a mess, wonder why?

And how do I explain to him what I was doing at that very moment when he saw his brother and family cut down? I have another friend from Pristina who lost members of his family and barely survived by doing some things he would rather forget. These two friends of mine are not friends of each other, as you can imagine.

Yes I have shame.

So when I see aggression and war mongering and flag waving it inflames my passion, and the US in Iraq is an example. But I don’t take it personally against you. And I try to keep my posts a little humorous too, and I’ve noticed you do too.

This debacle in Iraq is only one of many in the world, and it is sad to see and inflames passions. Those passions come out in posts and yours and others are what make this forum interesting.
Peter

 

[LJSB]

Perhaps I am too rough sometimes and assume too much myself 710. I apologize.
We lost 14 people in my very small parish in the 9/11 terrorist attack, 75 miles away in NYC.
I remember sitting at mass behind a young mother and her two young sons, about 8 and 11, crying their eyes out. No more dad.

I have friends and customers, though they are getting very old, with tattoos on their forearms from the concentration camps.

My father in law was captured by the Germans and taken as a POW.He escaped, was recaptured and escaped again and hidden by a family on their farm until the US Army came through and liberated the area. None of his children knew, I did because I asked, otherwise he would of never mentioned it. I had two uncles wounded in the Philippines. They like my father did not glorify the war and relish what they felt they had to do.
They worried about thier wives and mothers and sent their checks home to them.
We are not the wild west in the USA, we are not trained in our schools to be war mongers.
Our national conscience and commitment to our fellow man does not stop at our borders.

Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[H-carWizKid]

SHORT TERM THINKING GOT US INTO THIS, ONLY LONG TERM THINKING WILL GET US OUT.

Stop repeating the obvious. Restatement of the problem and how we got here isn't solving anything. Yes, this is a mess, yes President Bush was in office when it began, President Bush will not be in office when it ends. Start thinking about the future instead of wallowing in the present.

Ricky: You want to impeach Bush? Cool, write your congressman. How does that get our soldiers home, and secure the future for the innocent Iraqi's who are caught in the middle of the War on Terror?

All you did was expedite handing the problem off to... Cheney? Great Idea! You want to Impeach him too? Do you know how long that would take? Bush would have been termed out by then. How will that change the mess in Iraq? We show the world how great we are by burning our own government in effigy... It worked really well with Clinton too didn't it?

Your answer is just another series of problems.

710- You suggest we "do it right" by sending in MORE troops to RickySal's slaughter? You also suggest sending over independant contractors and hiring mercenaries?

They DO teach us how the government works in our schools, and your "solution" is about as possible as walking a camel through the eye of a sewing needle.

As a citizen of another nation I understand your limited concept of how our government works, but let me assist by explaining why your quick fixes don't work-

After the last election we now have a Republican President, and a Democratic Congress. If they try to send more troops enmasse as you suggest then the partisan congress will deny, if they try to increase the budget and infuse cash to hire the Merc teams, and independant contractors the partisan congress will also deny.

Fortunately- this also mutes Bush's opportunity to f#@k up- we call that "checks and balances".

Even if we DID send in more troops, what enemy would they face off with? This is a guerilla war, meaning non conventional. There aren't any tank lines to confront. There are small enemy elements striking public and military targets. How does adding more troops deal with that?

Consult the Brits? Why? because Isreal was such a great idea? Oh, and guess what: the Brits want out too.

There is no easy solution that you can dream up today that will fix this tomorrow. Budget issues, manpower, cultural resistance, the lack of a specific enemy force with an actual goal. These are all what military commanders call "friction". And friction builds to a "culminating point" where battles are either won or lost.

To lose isn't just a bad grade on our global report card, it is the lives of millions of Iraqi's. Lets not forget that they are caught in the middle of this.

They need support while they structure their new government in order to prevent another corrupt regime from replacing the corrupt regime that was toppled.

For those that still think punishing Bush is somehow going to solve this problem-

Please move hastily! without delay impeach the President, and run for office.

I look forward to ridiculing your silly, stupid short term solutions on the internet after you take office.

At this point I don't care if Bush is impeached from office, tried for war crimes and sent to rot in prison- If I thought for a second that it would help I would be all for it. I just don't think it would.

The problem is still a problem- it needs fixed, we all agree on that.

I hope I have illustrated that quick fixes, and band aids won't work, and criticizing the course of action that has brought us here is just spitting into a waterfall. Popular opiunion has made itself known. The fact that the war is unpopular is a forgone conclusion.

The question of "how would you fix it" can only be addressed by the American public by expressing our sentiment on the street, and when we go to the polls for the next election. When that happens we have the opportunity to vote in someone with a plan.

I assure you I will be watching and will cast my vote for the most qualified individual (Elephant, or Donkey- doesn't matter to me)

When the time comes, I urge you to consider more factors than just "Not Bush"- look for the candidate with specific long term plans to resolve the Iraq war, don't be so stupid as to restrict yourself to supporting your favorite party line- look for solutions.

Take care all,

Philip

 

[|Adeel]

Belgium. HA! What has Belgium or most any other "non agressive" (wimpy)European nation done to confront evil around the world?

What is evil? Who is evil? Who are you to decide who's evil and who's not? You really think iraqi's are evil? Or Afghanistani's? This is so typical black/white thinking: Either you are good, or you are evil. Not a fan of this type of thinking, I'm sorry. Even Norway had it's balls pressed hard by USA after the 911, because we didn't have a option of staying neutral in the "war against terror", we had to "be with you, or be against you" with USA. That piss me off

Okey, Saddam was evil, you got rid of him. Where on the world map do you want to point your finger at next? Kudos to Americans for helping europeans, but it's not so friendly to call european nations for wimpy.

I want this replyed by ericwgnsx only, other can comment but I won't reply to them. I just want to know what he think evil is.


To me, honestly, it seems like there was a plan for invading Iraq, but never a plan on how to create stability in the country (I still miss those awesome weapons of mass destruction!). The way I see it, forget about leaving Iraq to the iraqi's before 2010.

 

[H-carWizKid]

To me, honestly, it seems like there was a plan for invading Iraq, but never a plan on how to create stability in the country (I still miss those awesome weapons of mass destruction!). The way I see it, forget about leaving Iraq to the iraqi's before 2010.

I couldn't agree more.

Philip

 

[LJSB]

WMD.

 

[Ski_Banker]

I look forward to ridiculing your silly, stupid short term solutions on the internet after you take office.

...

I hope I have illustrated that quick fixes, and band aids won't work, and criticizing the course of action that has brought us here is just spitting into a waterfall.

Actually, you haven't illustrated anything except that you are above your own criticisms of others. You ASK for long term solutions, and then critique the responses as weak. What is YOUR long term solution? Based on what you have written, or at least 90+% of it, I only gather you know what will NOT work (ie, others' responses). To paraphrase you, "Ok smart guy, what is your solution?"

I have some original, game-changing (I think) ideas. I'll share them later, after I've "ridiculed your silly, stupid short term solution." :smile:

 

[710]

Ok, you have points, you are right, the American people would never agree to swamping Iraq with US soldiers to stabilise things..

Something just occurred to me. What if Bush is doing the exact right thing right now? Can’t pull out because (they say) it would be worse.
Can’t increase troops because of restraints at home.
So he, in his wisdom, has settled on exactly the right balance of involvement, which we are now seeing at this very moment. And the best thing to do may be to continue doing what he is doing?




Um…no, maybe not.