Bell Twin Turbo failure

[DONYMO]

I have a Bell Twin Turbo setup and one of the turbos went out at Road Atlanta this past weekend. There is oil all over the intercooler and all around the turbo. When I rev the engine, I can hear it making metal "ting-ing" noises (i.e. not good).
Maybe some seal busted and it lost oil and then broke, I don't know.

Anyway, 2 questions:

1. Has anyone had this type of turbo failure on the BELL turbo system and how did you fix it?

2. Can anyone recommend a place that can fix a turbo that has my turbo's symptoms?

BTW...the turbos are made by Aerodyne.

Thanks,
Don

[This message has been edited by DONYMO (edited 12 August 2002).]

 

[ACR_Motorsports]

Please try not run the car until you fix the problem and or remove the system. The last thing you want is metal particles going into your motor.

You may have a very hard time getting the Aerodyne turbo fixed. They may be going out of business soon. Hopefully, there will be a company that buys up their product/technology.

Originally posted by DONYMO:
I have a Bell Twin Turbo setup and one of the turbos went out at Road Atlanta this past weekend. There is oil all over the intercooler and all around the turbo. When I rev the engine, I can hear it making metal "ting-ing" noises (i.e. not good).
Maybe some seal busted and it lost oil and then broke, I don't know.

Anyway, 2 questions:

1. Has anyone had this type of turbo failure on the BELL turbo system and how did you fix it?

2. Can anyone recommend a place that can fix a turbo that has my turbo's symptoms?

BTW...the turbos are made by Aerodyne.

Thanks,
Don

[This message has been edited by DONYMO (edited 12 August 2002).]

------------------

www.acrmotorsports.com

[This message has been edited by ACR_Motorsports (edited 12 August 2002).]

 

[matteni]

Maybe they are not as dead as we thought?

See here: http://www.nsxprime.com/ubb/Forum22/HTML/000033.html

 

[Sensei]

Originally posted by DONYMO:
Anyway, 2 questions:

1. Has anyone had this type of turbo failure on the BELL turbo system and how did you fix it?

2. Can anyone recommend a place that can fix a turbo that has my turbo's symptoms?

Through my own experience, I've had no problems but I do know of several failures but they weren't directly turbo related failures. Meaning the failures were due to improper installation or tuning. Although only one needs to be repaired, the second turbocharger should be sent as well. The two
turbochargers need to be in balance with each other as a matched pair.

I would still need to know exactly which part of the turbo broke or at least which side, the compressor side or the turbine side. Also, which turbo went out(driver or passenger side),and how long you had them for. What exactly were the necessary mods to your car.(fuel, ignition...)
These are some of the things I found to be at fault...
Using bleeders in order to raise boost levels.
Too much ignition advance or not enough fuel.
Incorrect or damaged vacum signal hose routing to turbocharger's
actuators and bypass valve.


[This message has been edited by Sensei (edited 14 August 2002).]

 

[DONYMO]

The driver's side went out.
The system was installed by Corky Bell about 7 years ago.
It ran about 5-6 psi and has never been modified in any way to try and make more power.
I've kept up with making sure the turbos had oil.
I talked to Aerodyne yesterday and he thinks there may be a possibility of a piece of the catalytic converter breaking off and flying into the turbo, thus busting it. If this is the case, I may need to replace the cats (arrgh!).

 

[bayareansx1999]

Originally posted by DONYMO:
The driver's side went out.
The system was installed by Corky Bell about 7 years ago.
It ran about 5-6 psi and has never been modified in any way to try and make more power.
I've kept up with making sure the turbos had oil.
I talked to Aerodyne yesterday and he thinks there may be a possibility of a piece of the catalytic converter breaking off and flying into the turbo, thus busting it. If this is the case, I may need to replace the cats (arrgh!).

maybe you just need to rebuild the turbo, how many miles do you have so far on the turbo?

 

[Sensei]

DONYMO; 7 years ago and you take it to the track as well? Wow! Whether it needed a rebuild or not, it did seem rather unusual to just suddenly break. Normally it would be a gradual process and exhibit tell tale signs of damage. I was thinking foreign objects entering the intake but with the location of the intakes, it seemed highly unlikely...but, "possibility of a piece of the catalytic converter breaking off and flying into the turbo..."oooh yeahhh!!!The turbos on this application were mounted after the cats...that's a very good call, you probably spoke with Gerhardt. This would explain your metal "ting-ing" noises, which could only come from the pivoting vanes which are only on the exhaust turbine side!
Seeing how old your kit is, I would ask Gerhardt for their newer style actuators.


Two good reasons to get the Comptech bypass tubes, one, they really make those Aerochargers come alive, and you'll be wishing you had done it sooner. Two, they allow you to keep the mileage and wear off the cats, preserving them for just special occassions...Smog Checks. The bypass tubes are easy direct bolt-in replacements of the cats.

On another note; hearing that you actually spoke with Aerodyne recently, also brings great relief to many of us. Your in good hands now, thank you.

 

[DONYMO]

The turbos have approximately 50,000 miles on them. Aerodyne said that they have a service life of about 150,000 miles before needing to be rebuilt. I'm sure this is optimistic, of course. Anyway, I like what Sensei had to say (above) and I think some cat bypass pipes are in my NEAR future!

 

[Periokid]

Ah the good old Aerodyne.

As any Miata owner who has had them.

Their failure rate was so high Corky gave up on using them in the Miata.

My Aerodyne died after only a few thousand miles.

When they work, they are awesome, however.

------------------
1991 NSX Red/Black

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by Periokid:
Ah the good old Aerodyne.

As any Miata owner who has had them.

Their failure rate was so high Corky gave up on using them in the Miata.

My Aerodyne died after only a few thousand miles.

When they work, they are awesome, however.

There was a problem with the exhaust pulses created by many in-line 4cyl engines that were hard on the variable impeller design. Unfortunate, but specific to those engines. Later models may have resolved that as they are now used in kits for the Focus. It sounds like DONYMO got ~7 years and 50k miles on his before one was damaged rather than failing on it's own. That's better than many OEM units have done on other cars.

[This message has been edited by sjs (edited 15 August 2002).]

 

[Periokid]

Yup, it was certainly a Miata issue.

I loved the aerodyne. It had supercharger and turbocharger like feel. The best of both worlds.

It was too bad they could never get them to be reliable on the Miata.



------------------
1991 NSX Red/Black

 

[TheSwishh]

Get rid of those cats! They are robbing you of sooooo much response and power! I had my cats on for about 2 days before I put in the test pipes... WHAT A DIFFERENCE

Aerodyne should have them fixed for you in less than 1 week.

 

[DONYMO]

Thanks Swishh!

 

[Sensei]

Originally posted by sjs:

There was a problem with the exhaust pulses created by many in-line 4cyl engines that were hard on the variable impeller design. Unfortunate, but specific to those engines. Later models may have resolved that as they are now used in kits for the Focus...

[This message has been edited by sjs (edited 15 August 2002).]

Thanks sjs and Periokid for bringing it up. That's very interesting, I didn't know of this. Did they find that this was only related to the Miata engines or to 4 cylinder engines. I was thinking to adapt an Aerocharger on an S2000, but now I'm curious to know what exactly were the issues?

 

[ak]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Aerodyne turbochargers do not require oil feed and that was one of the reason to use it on NSX(so you don't need to drill for oil line?) I thought I read this off somewhere, but maybe I'm misinformed.

 

[DONYMO]

The Aerodyne Aerocharger does NOT feed off the engine's oil. It does have it's own oil supply and it CONSUMES one molecule of oil per revolution. There are two screws that are used to add oil to the Aerocharger: 1 on the top of the turbo and one on the side. You put oil into the top hole until it comes out of the bottom one and then you close them both up. Under "normal" conditions, oil only needs to be added once every 30,000 miles.

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by DONYMO:
The Aerodyne Aerocharger does NOT feed off the engine's oil. It does have it's own oil supply and it CONSUMES one molecule of oil per revolution. There are two screws that are used to add oil to the Aerocharger: 1 on the top of the turbo and one on the side. You put oil into the top hole until it comes out of the bottom one and then you close them both up. Under "normal" conditions, oil only needs to be added once every 30,000 miles.

True, but I've been told to replace it annually or ~20k miles rather than just fill. Anyone with them for more than a few years that can comment? One dealer that sells them said the bearings are the weak point if you let the oil get old. Super nice bearings, but not impervious to damage. No idea how long is really safe, but I’ll add that to my list of questions.

Another reason they are SO convenient is that they can be mounted low without worrying about a pump to return oil to the sump (most turbos rely on gravity to help).

 

[DONYMO]

Yeah...the service interval I quoted above is from Corky Bell and also from a guy at the Aerodyne HQ. I did, however, add oil on a regular basis...more often than suggested since I ran the car hard. Also, there is no way to get the oil out in order to "change" it. Additionally, neither Aerodyne nor Corky said anything about needing to "change" the oil...only to top it off, so I don't know where you get that info unless it just seems logical to you. So I ask you then, how exactly would one get the existing oil out of the turbo? Open the bottom screw and let it seep out for several hours? Also, why do you think the oil goes bad, thus requiring such a procedure?

 

[sjs]

Sorry to say I don't recall the exact sources. One was back when I first researched the kit and the other was just this month from a guy who sells them for cycles. (I spoke with lot’s of their retailers recently.)

So far I just topped mine off but I just got new bottles and was planning to either suck out as much possible with a small hose, or possibly remove them since one seems top have a slightly loose housing anyway.

As for why to replace it, I guess the answer is the extreme heat that turbos endure. Frankly I never questioned it before. However, since it is an "oil wick" system I guess dirt isn't really a concern, so if the oil doesn't break down or deteriorate due to a combination of heat, moisture, and any nominal contaminants, then perhaps there is no basis for changing it. Hmmm... makes me nervous, but I certainly prefer the simplicity. As I said above, I'll add it to my questions for when I talk with Gerhard. (is that who you quoted?)

 

[DONYMO]

Thanks sjs.
I'm not sure who I spoke to...it was someone at the New York office. I want to say Richard, but I'm just not sure.

Do you have a method for draining the oil out?

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by DONYMO:
Thanks sjs.
I'm not sure who I spoke to...it was someone at the New York office. I want to say Richard, but I'm just not sure.

Do you have a method for draining the oil out?

In NY it was possibly Jim.

I haven't tried to pull the oil out yet, perhaps this weekend if time allows between assembling my 510 engine and other obligations.