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Drivetrain advice, suggestions & experience from anyone 4 high powerd NSX for please

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Drivetrain advice, suggestions & experience from anyone 4 high powerd NSX for please

Aloha,
I have a 1991 NSX that made 674whp and 502wtq on 92 octane with a flex fuel system so I can run E100 ethanol, but had the chance to tune on ethanol, but should have been close to 800whp. My engine is actually the engine that Cody Loveland of Lovefab had in his 2012 first Pike's Peak NSX, and he had a huge dyno and made 1046whp but did the race with the car tuned in the 800'swhp range.

Now, I've decided to do a Brian Crower 3.4 liter stroker kit, and the machine shop is almost done. So now I should make around 720-740whp on 92 octane and 850-900who on E100 ethanol.

When I only had 642whp on my previous/smaller turbo, I broke my rear drive shaft in a drag race which caused the car to over rev, and break a valve spring, so I had pull the engine out and replace all new valve springs, which was very difficult because i live in Hawaii, so parts are not normally in stock on my island of Oahu, where HOnolulu is located, so I normally have to buy from mainland and ship over, and my car was down for almost 6 months.

I have a a build thread that needs a lot of updating as I've changed 90% of the turbo kit but if you want to see my first build thread when I was runnng a smaller turbo, the thread is at
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/175030-I-need-a-Psychiatrist-I-believe-I-m-obsessed!

I also had an 8 page feature in the August 2014 Superstreet Magazine, it was in the printed version too, but here's a link to the online version of the article.
http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/1408-1991-acura-nsx-lovefab-pikes-peak/

If you want to skip reading my build thread since it needs updating, at lease here's my current drive train....
  • Science of Speed Rebuilt Transmission
  • Science of Speed Twin Carbon 700 Clutch
  • NSX-R 4.23 with Final Drive Gears
  • NSX-R Differential
  • Science of Speed Short Shifter



I know I can get a 1000 hp rated drive shaft so I won't break my driveshaft again, but it means I'm putting my transmission at risk. So, I've been on the search for a reasonably priced gearset/transmission that can handle 850+whp car with a 1000hp rated driveshaft.

I've checked out the PPG Billet 5 speed Helical Cut Dog set at their website at this page http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/page.asp?productid=97 .

But I'm being quoted $16,000 for the gearset, that doesn't include shipping to Hawaii, and if it's the gearset sent un-assemled/not put together and I can't just swap it out in my bellhousing, but have to actually build/assemble the gearset, than i will have to ship my entire bellhousing and tranny to Science of Speed to put it all together in my bellhousing and ship it back to Hawaii, so that would add another $3k or more to the job, plus would take at least another 3-4 months to get it shipped to SOS, have them build it and send it back.

So I'm looking for a transmission that will be able to handle 850-900whp and about 650-700 pounds of torque at the wheels.

The PPG Product at http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/page.asp?productid=97 says it can handle that power, but $16,000 for just the parts, and I may have to spend another $3,000 or more to send to mainland, have SOS build it, and send it back. If anyone has high 750+whp NA1 5sp NSX, Can you please tell me what about your transmission.
  1. Did you buy from PPG? And/or any other transmission products you found so your tranny can handle the power?
  2. What list of Drivetrain products did you buy to handle 750 or even 800+whp?
  3. How much did you pay for each item and was it retail/wholesale/group buy or promotional price.
  4. Where did you buy them from?
  5. If you bought PPG's gearset or another billet/high power geerset, was it already assembled and you just a swap out in the bell housing.
  6. Are you happy with your products? if you used different products for your transmission, will you tell me what you like and what you don't like?
  7. During your build/search for products, did you find anything else beside PPG or any other part of your tranny that you thought was a good product/backup option if you didn't get the parts you actually used?
  8. How smooth is the shifting on your tranny now (I have a 5 speed with the SOS 700 torque rated clutch in mine. Hawaii is very hilly, and so there's many time a day I have to start
    moving at after a traffic light turns green and I'm on a steep inlcine, so I need a clutch that enngeses early, but can handle the power. I'm hapy with the SOS so far and it will be handle my power once I'm a 3.4 liter engine and when I run aclohol, will be very powerful, and Ill probably be on drag slicks even if it's a highway run starting at 45mph. But even the SOS doesn't engage until 30% or more after I start to ease into first, and I've spent 30+ hours fine tuning my clutch adjustment to get it to engage as early as possible. So I'd love suggestions and experience others have had with transmissions that can handle 800+whp please.
 
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Aloha,
I have a 1991 NSX that made 674whp and 502wtq on 92 octane with a flex fuel system so I can run E100 ethanol, but had the chance to tune on ethanol, but should have been close to 800whp. My engine is actually the engine that Cody Loveland of Lovefab had in his 2012 first Pike's Peak NSX, and he had a huge dyno and made 1046whp but did the race with the car tuned in the 800'swhp range.

Now, I've decided to do a Brian Crower 3.4 liter stroker kit, and the machine shop is almost done. So now I should make around 720-740whp on 92 octane and 850-900who on E100 ethanol.

When I only had 642whp on my previous/smaller turbo, I broke my rear drive shaft in a drag race which caused the car to over rev, and break a valve spring, so I had pull the engine out and replace all new valve springs, which was very difficult because i live in Hawaii, so parts are not normally in stock on my island of Oahu, where HOnolulu is located, so I normally have to buy from mainland and ship over, and my car was down for almost 6 months.

I have a a build thread that needs a lot of updating as I've changed 90% of the turbo kit but if you want to see my first build thread when I was runnng a smaller turbo, the thread is at
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/175030-I-need-a-Psychiatrist-I-believe-I-m-obsessed!

I also had an 8 page feature in the August 2014 Superstreet Magazine, it was in the printed version too, but here's a link to the online version of the article.
http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/1408-1991-acura-nsx-lovefab-pikes-peak/

If you want to skip reading my build thread since it needs updating, at lease here's my current drive train....
  • Science of Speed Rebuilt Transmission
  • Science of Speed Twin Carbon 700 Clutch
  • NSX-R 4.23 with Final Drive Gears
  • NSX-R Differential
  • Science of Speed Short Shifter



I know I can get a 1000 hp rated drive shaft so I won't break my driveshaft again, but it means I'm putting my transmission at risk. So, I've been on the search for a reasonably priced gearset/transmission that can handle 850+whp car with a 1000hp rated driveshaft.

I've checked out the PPG Billet 5 speed Helical Cut Dog set at their website at this page http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/page.asp?productid=97 .

But I'm being quoted $16,000 for the gearset, that doesn't include shipping to Hawaii, and if it's the gearset sent un-assemled/not put together and I can't just swap it out in my bellhousing, but have to actually build/assemble the gearset, than i will have to ship my entire bellhousing and tranny to Science of Speed to put it all together in my bellhousing and ship it back to Hawaii, so that would add another $3k or more to the job, plus would take at least another 3-4 months to get it shipped to SOS, have them build it and send it back.

So I'm looking for a transmission that will be able to handle 850-900whp and about 650-700 pounds of torque at the wheels.

The PPG Product at http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/page.asp?productid=97 says it can handle that power, but $16,000 for just the parts, and I may have to spend another $3,000 or more to send to mainland, have SOS build it, and send it back. If anyone has high 750+whp NA1 5sp NSX, Can you please tell me what about your transmission.
  1. Did you buy from PPG? And/or any other transmission products you found so your tranny can handle the power?
  2. What list of Drivetrain products did you buy to handle 750 or even 800+whp?
  3. How much did you pay for each item and was it retail/wholesale/group buy or promotional price.
  4. Where did you buy them from?
  5. If you bought PPG's gearset or another billet/high power geerset, was it already assembled and you just a swap out in the bell housing.
  6. Are you happy with your products? if you used different products for your transmission, will you tell me what you like and what you don't like?
  7. During your build/search for products, did you find anything else beside PPG or any other part of your tranny that you thought was a good product/backup option if you didn't get the parts you actually used?
  8. How smooth is the shifting on your tranny now (I have a 5 speed with the SOS 700 torque rated clutch in mine. Hawaii is very hilly, and so there's many time a day I have to start
    moving at after a traffic light turns green and I'm on a steep inlcine, so I need a clutch that enngeses early, but can handle the power. I'm hapy with the SOS so far and it will be handle my power once I'm a 3.4 liter engine and when I run aclohol, will be very powerful, and Ill probably be on drag slicks even if it's a highway run starting at 45mph. But even the SOS doesn't engage until 30% or more after I start to ease into first, and I've spent 30+ hours fine tuning my clutch adjustment to get it to engage as early as possible. So I'd love suggestions and experience others have had with transmissions that can handle 800+whp please.

Interesting...

It sucks that Quaife doesn't support the Nsx.

I remember reading a thread about a guy who is working with a manufacture to develop a gear kit for the Nsx. There is a post some where on Prime.

Didn't OS Giken also make a gearkit?
 
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Here is the link Jaffa was talking about.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/193663-Turbo-Lab-Straight-cut-Gears?highlight=turbolab

Here is another for sale thread for straight cut gears as well.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/191409-ADAC-race-transmission?highlight=transmission

I've got a 6-speed, which means even fewer options than you. I look at Liberty Gears, Holinger, Quaife, PPG, and KAPs. There is support for the NSX via Holinger for complete transmissions, but none for gear sets. The Holinger transmissions would hold on road race conditions, but not the power you are looking to achieve. Besides that, they were about $50k a piece.

Have you thought about the use of coatings?
 
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Here is the link Jaffa was talking about.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/193663-Turbo-Lab-Straight-cut-Gears?highlight=turbolab

Here is another for sale thread for straight cut gears as well.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/191409-ADAC-race-transmission?highlight=transmission

I've got a 6-speed, which means even fewer options than you. I look at Liberty Gears, Holinger, Quaife, PPG, and KAPs. There is support for the NSX via Holinger for complete transmissions, but none for gear sets. The Holinger transmissions would hold on road race conditions, but not the power you are looking to achieve. Besides that, they were about $50k a piece.

Have you thought about the use of coatings?

What kind of coatings?

My whole tranny was built by SOS, I should have had them Chryo-Freeze them when they rebuilt it a few years ago, but didn't, and honestly don't know if it would make that big of a difference.
 
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The link you provided is a little short on technical details, specifically performance details and torque handling capability (horsepower is less of an issue). If PPG says that it can handle 1000 hp, is that in every gear pair and at any RPM? That is a huge variation in the torque that any gear pair has to handle compared to stock.

You might want to read the fine print in the PPG Terms and Conditions as the only thing that the warranty appears to cover is faulty manufacture. The T&C are pretty specific that the customer is responsible for determining the suitability of the product and notes that the product may fail when used in motorsports activities, competitive or otherwise. In such case, sucks to be the customer!

Lightweight, weight-optimized and performance components are supplied subject to warranty only againstmanufacturing defects. It is possible that in certain conditions operating life may be reduced. Similarlyprototype, experimental or components manufactured to the Customer’s design are supplied subject towarranty only against manufacturing defects. Furthermore, such components - by their very nature - are notwarranted as to their suitability for use or performance.Goods intended for motorsport or any related application, or for product development, evaluation orexperimentation, are supplied subject to the customer recognizing that such goods may operate under extremeloads and conditions and that it is wholly the customer’s responsibility to ensure that the goods are correctlyfitted, inspected, adjusted and maintained at all times to suit the specific conditions in which they may be used.It is the customer’s responsibility to ensure that the correct type and specification of products are fitted and thatthe products’ published limitations are not exceeded. PPG will accept no responsibility whatsoever for failure,damage, injury or consequential loss if the wrong product or products have been used or, in the opinion of PPG,if excessive loads have been applied to the components, in particular if used during an activity that can bedescribed as motorsport, be it competitive or otherwise.

The size of the NSX gearbox fits a gearset that was designed to handle the torque associated with the stock engine and provide reliability consistent with what people expect from a Honda. You may be able to achieve some improvement in torque transfer capability by a change in materials; but, unless the OEM gearsets were fabricated from potmetal, it is probably unrealistic to expect that a change in metallurgy or surface treatment is going to net you a close to 300% increase in torque handling capability. If you want a 300% increase in torque handling capability with OEM reliability, you are talking about a larger transmission.

The PPG product may be perfectly good gearsets. Just set realistic expectations about how much improvement is feasible if you are trying to jam them into an unchanged housing.

If you look at the Holinger transverse applications, the bigger MF series is only rated for 700 Nm torque for endurance applications. That is only around 780 hp at 8000 RPM, or less hp if your peak hp is occurring at a lower RPM. Its hard to be sure; but, the Holinger appears to be a physically larger unit than the NSX box which should not be a surprise. I am also assuming that the $50,000 price mentioned reflects the fact that it is a complete trans axle assembly.

You gotta pay to play or just accept the fact that you are going to be breaking things more often. Perhaps start stocking up on used NSX 5 speeds.
 
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The link you provided is a little short on technical details, specifically performance details and torque handling capability (horsepower is less of an issue). If PPG says that it can handle 1000 hp, is that in every gear pair and at any RPM? That is a huge variation in the torque that any gear pair has to handle compared to stock.

You might want to read the fine print in the PPG Terms and Conditions as the only thing that the warranty appears to cover is faulty manufacture. The T&C are pretty specific that the customer is responsible for determining the suitability of the product and notes that the product may fail when used in motorsports activities, competitive or otherwise. In such case, sucks to be the customer!

Lightweight, weight-optimized and performance components are supplied subject to warranty only againstmanufacturing defects. It is possible that in certain conditions operating life may be reduced. Similarlyprototype, experimental or components manufactured to the Customer’s design are supplied subject towarranty only against manufacturing defects. Furthermore, such components - by their very nature - are notwarranted as to their suitability for use or performance.Goods intended for motorsport or any related application, or for product development, evaluation orexperimentation, are supplied subject to the customer recognizing that such goods may operate under extremeloads and conditions and that it is wholly the customer’s responsibility to ensure that the goods are correctlyfitted, inspected, adjusted and maintained at all times to suit the specific conditions in which they may be used.It is the customer’s responsibility to ensure that the correct type and specification of products are fitted and thatthe products’ published limitations are not exceeded. PPG will accept no responsibility whatsoever for failure,damage, injury or consequential loss if the wrong product or products have been used or, in the opinion of PPG,if excessive loads have been applied to the components, in particular if used during an activity that can bedescribed as motorsport, be it competitive or otherwise.

The size of the NSX gearbox fits a gearset that was designed to handle the torque associated with the stock engine and provide reliability consistent with what people expect from a Honda. You may be able to achieve some improvement in torque transfer capability by a change in materials; but, unless the OEM gearsets were fabricated from potmetal, it is probably unrealistic to expect that a change in metallurgy or surface treatment is going to net you a close to 300% increase in torque handling capability. If you want a 300% increase in torque handling capability with OEM reliability, you are talking about a larger transmission.

The PPG product may be perfectly good gearsets. Just set realistic expectations about how much improvement is feasible if you are trying to jam them into an unchanged housing.

If you look at the Holinger transverse applications, the bigger MF series is only rated for 700 Nm torque for endurance applications. That is only around 780 hp at 8000 RPM, or less hp if your peak hp is occurring at a lower RPM. Its hard to be sure; but, the Holinger appears to be a physically larger unit than the NSX box which should not be a surprise. I am also assuming that the $50,000 price mentioned reflects the fact that it is a complete trans axle assembly.

You gotta pay to play or just accept the fact that you are going to be breaking things more often. Perhaps start stocking up on used NSX 5 speeds.

I agree and understand most of what you're saying. However, neither spending $50grand for a tranny, nor stocking up on 5 speeds, especially when I have the 4.23 gearing, NSX-R Differential and Final drive is possible. Yet, I see people with 900-1000+ whp NSX's. My engine is actually the engine that was in Cody Loveland from Lovefab's 2012 Pike's Peak race. After the race he rebuilt the internals and sent the engine and manifold to me here. He mad 1056whp with a larger turbo than mine, and ran the race at about 850whp, which as we all know, Pike's Peak is a significant amount of incline and short bursts of intense acceleration, which his stock NSX tranny held up. The main problem is that the NSX transmission is actually a front wheel drive transmission, so that's the biggest limiting options. Very few builders of 800+whp cars are front wheel drive, so there's no other tranny to try and replace it with.

Alas.... the quest continues.
 
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