Getting along with vendors

[TURBO2GO]

There seems to be a gray area on the forum that has always left me a bit confused, and I am hoping this thread brings about some clarity.

What is the purpose of the forum exactly? Is it for a bunch of enthusiasts to talk about anything NSX related? Is it multi-purpose for that and for vendors to sell and interact as well as a classifieds section? I ask because I don't know what to do sometimes when it comes to this mix of being able to express your opinions of products freely, versus being nice to a vendor.

Like there seems to be some unwritten rule that you shouldn't go on a vendor's group buy thread and freely express your opinions on what they are selling. That's somehow not right to do.... And I am not judging any of this, I am just asking questions. So is it ok to go elsewhere, and talk about that very product if it's not all positive?

Sometimes you just have genuine questions.... But they can be viewed as negative. Like you are being critical of a product. Sometimes even vendors post on other vendor threads. An example is nsx1145 that has coolant tanks, asking questions about the build quality of coolant tanks now being sold by lovefab. Two group buys, same product, and they are on each others threads. At least one is on the other. Is this ok? What if I, who am not a vendor, have a question that may not make a product look so good? What should I do? Post on that thread? Post elsewhere? don't post at all?

What if I feel a product is not good? Where does my obligation lie? Is my obligation to keep things civil and respect the vendor and let them sell without any possible negative comments? Or is my obligation more towards members I interact with everyday and watch them buy a product I may think is no good? I guess the easiest thing is to keep your mouth shut. Which... A majority of people do. Even when they have bought a product, it seems taboo to talk poorly of it. But how is that fair to everyone else?

What if someone is buying a product readily available, marking it up, and selling on the forum. And you know anyone can get that elsewhere, but you don't say anything. Then a bunch of people buy it, and feel duped. Aren't ou kind of guilty for not letting other members know? Would you like it if it happened to you and no one let you know?

It feels often that a vendor actually has greater rights here than an individual. Is that how we want it? Again, I am just asking, not imposing any opinion or view. How can you be fair to a vendor, but also say what's on your mind? I've been PM'ed after buying something and been told "oh yeah that thing won't fit well or work right"... And I am thinking "why are you telling me this now??".... It's mainly because if they said something publicly, other members would jump down their throat. Does this forum belong to members? Or vendors? I mean it obviously belongs to Lud but in terms of purpose....

This is an area of confusion for me. Any clarity would be appreciated.

 

[NSX Prime]

The site is first and foremost for NSX owners, of which I am one. Most owners find benefit in interacting with vendors for our niche vehicle.

There is no unwritten rule on the site that people aren't allowed to ask questions, criticism, or outright complaints about products or vendors. In fact doing so will drive improvement all around. The only thing that I don't really have patience for is people carrying out a grudge against someone else via attacks thinly disguised as "questions," or ongoing attempts to disrupt/dominate a thread just because they don't like someone or something that is being sold. Luckily that is pretty rare here.

 

[TURBO2GO]

So what is the best way in your opinion to discuss the shortcomings of any products? On the vendors thread? Or on a different thread elsewhere?

 

[NSX Prime]

So what is the best way in your opinion to discuss the shortcomings of any products? On the vendors thread? Or on a different thread elsewhere?

I would think in general if it is a thread just discussing a product or product idea, that would be a good spot. If it's a sale or group buy thread it would be polite to discuss it in a separate thread instead of cluttering up the sale thread. If you want to just jump in with a thorough review, a new thread might be helpful. However I'm not really interested in making up more rules, we have too many already, so please just use your discretion.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Ok.

 

[docjohn]

what specificly prompted this thread? I remember the little itsy bitsy antenna thread in which you,and others warned it would decrease reception.....

 

[shawn110975]

I can think of a few more LOL

 

[DDozier]

I think it is mostly based on tone, something that is very hard to conclude from the written word unless great care is taken by the writer to describe their intent.

Lets say a vendor has developed a "NEW" NSX product and have made several claims as to how their product can enhance your pride and joy. If the claims can be proven to be false or hyperbole and you can use fact to disprove it. I have no issue with the information being provided to the public, however a better route may be to PM the vendor and present your concerns and wait for a response. If the Vendor can not or will not back up their claims with proof then I would feel obligated to voice my concerns in public and ask the relevant questions to prove the negative.

What anyone should not do is jump on a thread either for product development or sale of a product and say your product sucks without backing up that claim as well (unless it was designed to suck ). If you can make a cogent argument about the design or purpose and back it up with facts or question a vendor to produce the relevant data then go for it, but the tone of the questioning is most important. In the past Vendors have actually had it quite hard in this forum, an idea or product would be presented and there would be no shortage of people saying this will not work, but almost always without the "WHY", or even worse the post would simply repeat other non-facts as proof.

In the end anyone choosing to buy anything from anyone is doing so at their own risk, it is their obligation to research the vendor and the product, weigh the risks and proceed with that information in hand. I also feel it is everyone’s obligation to be professional and civil.

I have several products I am developing for the NSX, I know going into this that the return will be minimal and I am mostly doing it to prove it can be done. If I can cover my expenses, provide a quality product and support to the NSX community then I feel everyone wins. I however do not have to derive a living from this and my hat goes off to those that can as long as they provide a quality product and support to the NSX community. Remember without the ability to make a profit there will be no vendors, and everyone will be forced to do for themselves. We are very lucky to have the passionate vendors we have because no rational CEO would look to the NSX as viable automotive business platform to develop new products for, there just is not enough to spread the R&D and production cost.

I believe it is up to us to make this the best environment for a honest and mutually beneficial transaction to happen between the Vendor and the Buyer. That does not mean the cheapest as there is value in having the expertise to support the product.

Just my .02

Dave

 

[Ko-nsx]

I use common sense and refuse to be a keyboard gangster. Im not sure if I would have kept my nsx this long if it wasn't for nsxprime and its great members/registered users. I try to post positive, informative material, not blind rants. I love to see vendors and support them. I may be partial to the older vendors and that's based on my personal experiences and their commitment to the products they sell. This is a public website so vendors should be able to handle any questions, comments or complaints from people sending in money, many times BLINDLY! I don't have any vendors close to me to see anybody's work, so questions, video and many pictures would eliminate lots of thread jacking I have seen lately. Ultimately post should be informative and mature when dealing with vendors and they should act the same way when dealing with customer's, no matter how big a pain it is. Good products out lately but nothing new, which isn't bad...... but its normally somebody's else's version. Mama always said, if you don't have something nice to say... Just don't say or post anything..

 

[TURBO2GO]

Ok... So you see a product out on the market for $600. And someone buys this and resells it on this forum for $800. And you know that piece is available for less, but many NSX'ers are now paying 8, as they don't know. Meanwhile the vendor is also part of the community. What do you do? If you say something, you're hurting your vendor. If you say nothing, you're hurting a guy that may have looked out for you. If you do it through PM, you help only the one guy and no one else. Meanwhile the vendor may be a perfectly nice guy, just making a profit. Most people seem to sit back and say nothing. "If you have nothing good to say don't say anything at all" doesn't apply when someone else is paying for your silence. How would you feel if you came on the board, paid $1000 for an item, while everyone on the board knew that you could have had it for $600 but said nothing. They looked out for the vendor, not for you. Would you feel good about that? Which brings me to the point of a forum. Who does the forum serve? Members? Or vendors? It seems to me it is more a place for discussion than a place for business. Unless that business is coming STRICTLY to the benefit of all those members. Sometimes, it feels like a vendor has more clout than a member. And it's certainly easier to sit back and say nothing. Don't rock the boat as they say.

I think if you have a legitimate product at a good price and you are offering something very unique, the hype on the forum will boost your sales just as much as if you are over-charging or have a poor product will hang you.

I am not condoning negativity, insults, claims without facts, etc... but I have seen sometimes a member makes the slightest criticism and he gets a lot of heat because he was not on board with a vendor's product.

 

[blue_myriddn]

Ok... So you see a product out on the market for $600. And someone buys this and resells it on this forum for $800.

I would say that someone is paying the 30% markup for the price of convenience. Some people don't want the hassle of hunting all around, dealing with questionable retailers and being unsure of the quality of the product and would be willing to spend a bit more to let someone else go through all that hassle for them and simply pay them for doing so.

There is "value" in that sometimes, so I wouldn't always be so hard on the guy who buys cheap and then marks it up on Prime.

 

[Ko-nsx]

Turbo, I guess its all in how you feel that day. People used to and still do get called out on prices. If I saw something grossly over priced, I'd ask why. Especially if I saw it cheaper somewhere else. Again when vendors sell products they have to be open to questions. Is part of the business. If 20 people signed up for the supercharger group buy and somebody found them cheaper, I'd weight all options then go with who I was comfortable with. Would I make our public? Depends on how I felt that day. I might privately contact the vendor. If he privately told me to go screw myself, I might make it public. Depending on how I felt that day. I definitely wouldn't do anything to be evil in any way.

 

[SOURCE 1]

One of our members here PM'd me last week about vendor relations and how it seems to have taken a downslide recently where they were arguing on threads etc.. He was asking if I had any clue as to why.

The way I see it is this:

This Forum is for members. Not Vendors. If a Vendor is releasing a product and the members have an issue with it guess what. The vendor won't sell it and or redesign the product based on the feedback from the members. In this way the members discussing is very important.

If the vendor is making a claim that vendor should be able to back up the claim. If the vendor can not then yea, Someone should express that concern as a member.

If Competing vendors are making the same product:

Neither vendor should post on each others threads in any negative manner or to bash a product or say why one is better than the other. Out of Respect. Actually, Unless positive I don't see why any other vendor would post in another vendors thread. I think it is up to the member to decide which is better and ask the questions "caveat emptor" . Sometimes the product can be exactly the same. Int hat case then I'm guessing the member will buy from who they feel most comfortable buying from.

As far as a part that is available on the open market: I see the issue you have. BUT I also see a bunch of members who support the small amount of Vendors that the NSX is supported by.

I know from interactions I have had with members they would much rather spend a little more and buy from a reputable Vendor here on prime than to buy from randoms on Ebay. Reason is because they want the product development to continue and they appreciate the time/money/ and sometimes thankless job that this ends up being.

In our business we try to get along with everyone. Which is why we have such great working relationships with companies that technically are our competition. We are all here for the same thing. Passion of this car. And if all the vendors start thinking that way the arguing or back and forth will stop.

My .02

Hope this helps Dave.


Brian

 

[DDozier]

Ok... So you see a product out on the market for $600. And someone buys this and resells it on this forum for $800. And you know that piece is available for less, but many NSX'ers are now paying 8, as they don't know. Meanwhile the vendor is also part of the community. What do you do?

You have no obligation to do anything. It is admirable that you feel that obligation to the community.

You could pay the fee to become a vendor, hire a shipping dept., open a line of credit with the manufacturer, and if you can sell the same product with the same level of service for a better price then do it. The market and the relationship between the buyer and vendor will dictate price and value.

You have to remember that lowest price and best value are not always the same thing. I will spend more of my money to support a brick and mortar store knowing they will be there to handle any of my issues, rather than a guy on the other end of a keyboard that has never put his hands on the product and as a result has know idea what I ordered other than the part number and the shipping weight.

There are business models that sell parts for cost and their profit is built into the shipping and handling fees. These types of vendors cannot offer any other value to their products because there is no margin for any other services. Depending on the product you may be willing to give up any added service for a better price. In this case price won. If you are buying a product that requires a specific knowledge for a specific application and you need a vendor to supply the knowledge that is the value he adds to the product and you should expect to pay a higher price but it is still a better value than figuring things out yourself.

That is my preference, you may prefer to pay the lowest price for any given part. I understand that, but it is up to the buyer to determine what is a value to them. If the vendor does not provide a value vs price that the consumer is willing to pay for they will not survive in the market.

It is an educated consumer about both price and value that will win in the end. Either by buying at the best price or buying with the value added by a knowledgable vendor to get exactly what they need with the least amount of hassle.

Again I understand your concern for the buyer, but from the eyes of a business owner I always try to present the best value to my customers and that will almost always mean that you will find someone somewhere willing to sell a product for less but it almost always means you are getting less.

Dave

 

[TURBO2GO]

Dave I run my own business too. And believe me I know what low margins are like, sometimes the products I pay $1000 for and have to resell to a customer is on eBay for $900. And I have zero desire to cater to the people that shop on price only the want my help, time, and advice on installation. Not everyone is my customer. But not everything is like that. Not everything needs tech support, not everything is sold on eBay from a person with no reputation, etc. sometimes the only thing a vendor might do is collect money and have a unit drop shipped from the same company that was selling I for less. Sometimes their margin isn't even so small.

My point is, if someone has knowledge, they can choose: do I want to pay $5 and get zero support or do I want to pay $7 and get support and deal with a trusted vendor. I don't want to be hung, because I provided that INFORMATION in a positive way. Because I'd want someone to look out for me so I look out for them. That keeps everyone honest, margins relative according to what support may be needed, etc.

 

[Ko-nsx]

My point is, if someone has knowledge, they can choose: do I want to pay $5 and get zero support or do I want to pay $7 and get support and deal with a trusted vendor. I don't want to be hung, because I provided that INFORMATION in a positive way.

How would you be hung?
You could post whatever you like on a public car forum........ until a moderator shut you down.
if you feel strongly about a product or its vendors prices and services got can post your feelings. Its been done lots of times. Positive and negative. You aren't RESPONSIBLE for anybody here, vendors or members. Again nsx parts aren't cheap so common sense would be to ask about an item or search. None of that is your responsibility.

 

[SFDreamer]

You have no obligation to do anything. It is admirable that you feel that obligation to the community.

You could pay the fee to become a vendor, hire a shipping dept., open a line of credit with the manufacturer, and if you can sell the same product with the same level of service for a better price then do it. The market and the relationship between the buyer and vendor will dictate price and value.

You have to remember that lowest price and best value are not always the same thing. I will spend more of my money to support a brick and mortar store knowing they will be there to handle any of my issues, rather than a guy on the other end of a keyboard that has never put his hands on the product and as a result has know idea what I ordered other than the part number and the shipping weight.

There are business models that sell parts for cost and their profit is built into the shipping and handling fees. These types of vendors cannot offer any other value to their products because there is no margin for any other services. Depending on the product you may be willing to give up any added service for a better price. In this case price won. If you are buying a product that requires a specific knowledge for a specific application and you need a vendor to supply the knowledge that is the value he adds to the product and you should expect to pay a higher price but it is still a better value than figuring things out yourself.

That is my preference, you may prefer to pay the lowest price for any given part. I understand that, but it is up to the buyer to determine what is a value to them. If the vendor does not provide a value vs price that the consumer is willing to pay for they will not survive in the market.

It is an educated consumer about both price and value that will win in the end. Either by buying at the best price or buying with the value added by a knowledgable vendor to get exactly what they need with the least amount of hassle.

Again I understand your concern for the buyer, but from the eyes of a business owner I always try to present the best value to my customers and that will almost always mean that you will find someone somewhere willing to sell a product for less but it almost always means you are getting less.

Dave

Very good points.

How would you be hung?
You could post whatever you like on a public car forum........ until a moderator shut you down.
if you feel strongly about a product or its vendors prices and services got can post your feelings. Its been done lots of times. Positive and negative. You aren't RESPONSIBLE for anybody here, vendors or members. Again nsx parts aren't cheap so common sense would be to ask about an item or search. None of that is your responsibility.

Bingo!


Waaaaaaaaaay toooo much over-thinking going on here. There is no gray area, there is no right or wrong way to post (other than applicable written rules of course). As mentioned, use common sense, post what YOU feel YOU want to put out there and move on lol, it truly could not be any more simple than that.

 

[docjohn]

prime was created to be owner/enthusiast centric..the vendor part came later......the hobyist part has always been running in the background..in the real world the economy is flawed in many ways due to complexity and layers of BS..on prime the layers are thinner,the universe smaller,but the same principles apply...If you or someone else chooses to be the prime BBB,or official auctionier......have fun.Buying and selling/ripping off and cheating/scamming and being honest and forthright will still occure at thier current levels........

 

[macgruber]

So why were my posts deleted in a vender hread when I was asking valid questions and by posting a disrespective PM that the vender sent me when I began asking "too" many questions about the validity of a product that he was selling?

 

[RSO 34]

So why were my posts deleted in a vender hread when I was asking valid questions and by posting a disrespective PM that the vender sent me when I began asking "too" many questions about the validity of a product that he was selling?

Your posts were negative and confrontational after the initial post (which is still there) asking for the contact info to verify the group buy. That inquiry was responded to and that post also is still there. The deleted posts added nothing to the thread and were causing the thread to degenerate into a pissing contest.

 

[Grimeas]

^ I got to read your posts before deleted and understand the point you made. Paying probably 3x's as much for a product then it should be mostly because of a name I see your point in wanting to make sure it was for real yourself instead of just going what someone says and really do not think much of the vender's responses. With that being said seems like they were removed to basically protect the vender from his kinda cocky response

 

[macgruber]

So its neither here nor there when it comes to customer service in NSX Primes eyes? What is NSX Prime's role in ensuring the vendor sells what is being advertised when evidence is pointing that it is not being correctly advertised?

- - - Updated - - -

^ I got to read your posts before deleted and understand the point you made. Paying probably 3x's as much for a product then it should be mostly because of a name I see your point in wanting to make sure it was for real yourself instead of just going what someone says and really do not think much of the vender's responses. With that being said seems like they were removed to basically protect the vender from his kinda cocky response

Thank you!

 

[RSO 34]

So its neither here nor there when it comes to customer service in NSX Primes eyes? What is NSX Prime's role in ensuring the vendor sells what is being advertised when evidence is pointing that it is not being correctly advertised?

- - - Updated - - -



Thank you!

You asked him for the contact info and he gave it to you. Aside from that, read the marketplace "rules". This is a caveat emptor marketplace. Other than trying to weed out know scammers, prime does not get involved in individual transactions or group buys.

 

[macgruber]

Then why did prime enact the Enuthisfy system if it doesnt get involved? So people that get "burned" by this GB are of no concern to NSXPrime because its a vendor and can circumvent the system?

 

[UnhuZ]

Hi.

So its neither here nor there when it comes to customer service in NSX Primes eyes? What is NSX Prime's role in ensuring the vendor sells what is being advertised when evidence is pointing that it is not being correctly advertised?

sorry...didn't see any evidences other than your suspicions beyond any explanation the seller gave.
I won't buy the mirrors, won't be a part of that GB, but i'm satisfied with the info the seller posted
about the source of the mirrors.
Your posts, on the other hand, were getting into my nerves... no matter what the seller said, you
kept doubting and even wanted to verify directly with spoon?!
Is like contacting Rays to verify that the wheels sold on Daves (TURBO2GO) GB thread were indeed
from them, and not from ROTA or something....

enough is enough....imo

Nuno