Just got the new brochure for the updated 2004 s2000 which I am thinking of buying. I like the new updates they have done. Anways towards the middle of the brochure it has an F1 car with the following message "Honda's latest racing efforts focus on the IRL series, where we will compete with a completely new, normally aspirated V-8 engine. So maybe the V-8 idea is not a joke.
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Honda V8 Coming Soon
- Thread starter 91BLACKANDBONENSX
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yeah but honda has had a V-8 in the CART series for awhile now.
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KulSecHskY said:
Honda DID(past tense). CART is now 100% Ford.
svalleynsx said:
o ok... but my point is that Honda has raced a V-8 before and it never made it into the NSX
don't they have a motor in F1?
i don't get the speed channel
=P
KulSecHskY said:
don't they have a motor in F1?
Honda has NA V10 in F1.
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I'm not sure if Honda's philosophy is necessarily to match the # of cylinders on their race engines to their production engines. There are probably numerous other engineering principles and dynamics that they DO apply to their streetcars not just based on engine size or how many cylinders.
I just hope Honda(BAR) does well at this weekends Indy F1 to salvage what has been for the most part a very dismal season for their team. If it's true "racing improves the breed" then any future Honda projects for upgrading their flagship may be in serious doubt IMO.
I just hope Honda(BAR) does well at this weekends Indy F1 to salvage what has been for the most part a very dismal season for their team. If it's true "racing improves the breed" then any future Honda projects for upgrading their flagship may be in serious doubt IMO.
svalleynsx said:
Bah! Dismal only if you were expecting them to be fighting it out for the top three positions. In fact, they're fighting it out for 5th place in the Constructors championship with inferior tires against a very competent Ford team. I'd say they weren't doing too bad. Of course, I DO want them to do better.
I heard that HONDA recalled some of the 'old' engineers for the next engine conception.
rumors, rumors, rumors. that is exactly what Honda is good at. Keeping the public guessing on what they are going to do next.
anyone know the specs to the new honda engine in the BAR honda that button was driving? It suffered engine blow at indy. too for BAR, it would've gave honda some recognition, since the honda formula one seen has been, how do i say "lack of"
- the main part i think honda isn't getting enuf points, is because of the budget. The big guns ferrarri, bmw, mb's have huge budgets and big sponsors.
- the main part i think honda isn't getting enuf points, is because of the budget. The big guns ferrarri, bmw, mb's have huge budgets and big sponsors.
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Ponyboy said:Bah! Dismal only if you were expecting them to be fighting it out for the top three positions. In fact, they're fighting it out for 5th place in the Constructors championship with inferior tires against a very competent Ford team. I'd say they weren't doing too bad. Of course, I DO want them to do better.
Well, like they say, "nobody remembers whoever comes in second place".
I'm not saying saying Honda should be competing against the big three, but by anyone's standards they should at least be among the leaders of the "second rung" teams of which they are obviously not. Based on their budget which is rumored to be among the best financed in F1 and their long-standing history of excellence in the sport, anything less than total disappointment would be a huge understatement to the top racing brass at Honda Racing.
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Some rumors that I heard where the following.
NSX - AWD V8
Maybe the V8 but I doubt the AWD
RL/Legend - AWD V6 V-Tec - V8 RWD
I think that it will be a RWD car with either the V8 or the V6
NSX - AWD V8
Maybe the V8 but I doubt the AWD
RL/Legend - AWD V6 V-Tec - V8 RWD
I think that it will be a RWD car with either the V8 or the V6
azndng said:
Honda spends nearly $200M/year in F1, with hundreds of people on the engine program. It's hardly the money. British American Tabacco has invested around $3 billion in BAR so far. So much so that they own nearly the whole team.
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hondaholic said:
These numbers sound right from the things I've read and heard as well. With all this backing at their disposal and the less than stellar results this year, Honda Racing has really got to be asking themselves some serious questions. Honda doesn't exactly go racing to finish in second place period!
On the other hand, look at how far Renault has come in such a short time, and obviously a much lower budget, and maybe there is hope that Honda can turn it around big-time next year. I hope so.
azndng said:
Here Ya go!
Thumbs-Up As New Honda Engine Hits Track January 16 10:01
Honda engine chiefs are signaling a tentative thumbs-up as the all-new RA003e V10 made a Barcelona debut yesterday.
Shuhei Nakamoto, Honda Racing Development's Engineering Director, commented as Jenson Button completed 30 initial laps: 'We've had a very good shakedown test today.'
The program was cut short when a reportedly engine-related gremlin struck the sparkling new BAR005. 'As with all first tests we've had one or two teething troubles,' the Japanese admitted.
'But the BAR Honda 005 and the new engine have performed well and it's good to see Jenson Button driving the new car,' he added. We're all looking forward to the season ahead.'
Test driver Anthony Davidson, 23 years old and from Hemel Hempstead, takes over for day two of the test on Thursday before BAR returnee Takuma Sato completes the program before the weekend.
BAR will benefit from fully exclusive Honda factory engines in 2003; and the Japanese manufacturer are promising 'more power' and 'improved torque' with the all-new V10.
As they also hit the livery with a prominent sponsorship arrangement this year, Project Leader Takeo Kiuchi thinks that Honda and BAR are ready to compete 'at the highest level in Formula One.'
He added: 'The whole team are determined to give the fans some exciting racing this year.'
The Japanese admitted a 'difficult time' for the manufacturer since returning in 2000. 'We have not been satisfied with our performance and we want to do better,' he said.
'In 2003 we want to start the season competitively,' Takeo continues.
'The RA003E is more than 15kg lighter than last year's engine; it revs to more than 19,000rpm and the torque curve is improved, too.
'Our target is to get into a position to fight for the world title as soon as possible. In short, Honda is committed to BAR, to Formula One and to winning.'
The article can be found here: http://www.f1i.com/articles/ARTICLE_482563.html
19,000 rpm's? That should put the power output to 900+ HP!! I believe there's a rumored "magic button" on the steering wheel that can boost the revs up to 19,100 rpm! Reliable? Not on the 23 sec. WOT on the bank and main straight of Indy. Maybe JV and JB had been hitting that button wayy too many times!
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Honda's RA003e V-10 vs. BMW's
19,000 RPM BMW Formula One engine
When it comes to horsepower produced by the internal combustion engine, the most fascinating game of all is Formula One. And while Ferrari has dominated the F1 scene of late thanks to a dream team of sponsors, engineers, managers and perhaps the best F1 driver of a generation, there have been some stand-out performances by other teams in this, the most expensive sport in history.
Throughout 2002, the horsepower meisters have been the Williams BMWs of Ralf Schumacher and Juan Pablo Montoya. When the car and tyres have been "working", they have shown remarkable speed. Montoya in particular has dominated the qualifying sessions and has taken pole position more often than Michael Schumacher thanks to the ongoing development of the BMW V10.
BMW recently released details of the development of the motor, which had its debut race around Albert Park at the beginning of the 2000 season, marking BMW's return to F1. In that race, the red line was set at 17,000. For those with an engineering bent, horsepower is directly proportional to RPM, so the more revs, the more horses.
Since BMW's F1 comeback, engine speed, and hence power output, has been steadily increasing. From 17,000 rpm at the start of the 2000 season, to 18,000rpm at the start of 2001, to 18,500 at the start of 2002), all the way to an incredible 19,000 rpm at the recent Italian GP.
During Saturday's qualifying for the Italian Grand Prix at Monza, the BMW ten-cylinder units of Ralf Schumacher and Juan Pablo Montoya were measured at 19,050 revs(!). BMW Motorsport Director Mario Theissen said after qualifying, "for an engineer it is thrilling to see figures which not so long ago were considered unattainable, suddenly becoming reality."
For those with a technical bent, consider these awesome statistics; 19,000rpm (revolutions per minute) means 9,500 ignitions per minute per cylinder. That translates to 158 ignitions per second for each cylinder, or one ignition every six thousandth of a second. The fuel/air mixture is drawn into the cylinder, compressed by the piston and ignited by the spark plug; then the flame front travels through the entire combustion chamber, the combustion gas expands and, by means of the pistons, provides the engine's power before being discharged through the exhaust ports. All this happens 158 times a second in each of the 10 cylinders. Warning- don't try this at home!
http://www.gizmo.com.au/public/News/news.asp?articleid=1497
19,000 RPM BMW Formula One engine
When it comes to horsepower produced by the internal combustion engine, the most fascinating game of all is Formula One. And while Ferrari has dominated the F1 scene of late thanks to a dream team of sponsors, engineers, managers and perhaps the best F1 driver of a generation, there have been some stand-out performances by other teams in this, the most expensive sport in history.
Throughout 2002, the horsepower meisters have been the Williams BMWs of Ralf Schumacher and Juan Pablo Montoya. When the car and tyres have been "working", they have shown remarkable speed. Montoya in particular has dominated the qualifying sessions and has taken pole position more often than Michael Schumacher thanks to the ongoing development of the BMW V10.
BMW recently released details of the development of the motor, which had its debut race around Albert Park at the beginning of the 2000 season, marking BMW's return to F1. In that race, the red line was set at 17,000. For those with an engineering bent, horsepower is directly proportional to RPM, so the more revs, the more horses.
Since BMW's F1 comeback, engine speed, and hence power output, has been steadily increasing. From 17,000 rpm at the start of the 2000 season, to 18,000rpm at the start of 2001, to 18,500 at the start of 2002), all the way to an incredible 19,000 rpm at the recent Italian GP.
During Saturday's qualifying for the Italian Grand Prix at Monza, the BMW ten-cylinder units of Ralf Schumacher and Juan Pablo Montoya were measured at 19,050 revs(!). BMW Motorsport Director Mario Theissen said after qualifying, "for an engineer it is thrilling to see figures which not so long ago were considered unattainable, suddenly becoming reality."
For those with a technical bent, consider these awesome statistics; 19,000rpm (revolutions per minute) means 9,500 ignitions per minute per cylinder. That translates to 158 ignitions per second for each cylinder, or one ignition every six thousandth of a second. The fuel/air mixture is drawn into the cylinder, compressed by the piston and ignited by the spark plug; then the flame front travels through the entire combustion chamber, the combustion gas expands and, by means of the pistons, provides the engine's power before being discharged through the exhaust ports. All this happens 158 times a second in each of the 10 cylinders. Warning- don't try this at home!
http://www.gizmo.com.au/public/News/news.asp?articleid=1497
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Tech Facts of Moden-Day F-1 engines
With ten times the horse-power of a normal road car, a Formula On engine produces quite amazing performance. With around 900 moving parts, the engines are very complex and must operate at very high temperatures.
Engines are currently limited to 3 litre, normally aspirated with 10 cylinders. These engines produce approximately 900 - 850 bhp and are made from forged aluminium alloy, and they must have no more than five valves per cylinder. In a quest to reduce the internal inertia of the moving parts, some components have been manufactured from ceramics. These materials are very strong in the direction they need to be, but have a very low density meaning that it takes less force to accelerate them, ideal for reducing the fuel consumption and efficiency of the engine. A similar material, beryllium alloy has been used, but the safety of it has been questioned. This material has been banned for 2001. The following list outlines some facts about a modern day F1 engine:
Random Facts:
· In an F1 engine revving at 18,000 rpm, the piston will travel up and down 300 times a second.
· Maximum piston acceleration is approximately 7,000 g (humans pass out at 7-8 g) which puts a load of over 3 tons on each connecting rod.
· The piston only moves around 50 mm but will accelerate from 0 - 100 kmh and back to 0 again in around 0.0025 seconds.
· If a connecting rod let go of its piston at maximum engine speed, the piston would have enough energy to travel vertically over 100 metres.
- If a water hose were to blow off, the complete cooling system would empty in just over a second.
The 1998 Mercedes-Benz started the trend of developing a new breed of smaller and lighter engines. Modern engines have a mass less than 100 kilograms and are deigned to be as low as possible to reduce the overall centre of gravity of the car. The engine must be as light as possible, but also as stiff as possible. This is because the only thing connecting the rear of the car to the chassis is the engine, so it must be able to take the huge cornering loads fro the suspension and aerodynamic forces from the large rear wing. A BMW.Williams spokesman said that the engine is fixed to the chassis with only four high strength suds, and is connected to the gearbox with six of these studs. Renault Sport has begun what is set to be a new trend in engine design, opening up the V-angle beyond 100 degrees. This allows the engine to sit lower in the car, reducing the centre of gravity, but the unit is currently suffering problems due to vibration and lack of stiffness.
The engine usually contains around 18 pints of oil, but this can often be seen to be spread all over the track! About 12 pints will be within the crankcase and cylinders at one time, with a dry-sump lubrication system changing the oil within the engine about four times a minute. The oil used is a special synthetic oil that are designed to withstand the high stress and temperatures present in an F1 engine. Ingredients are carefully chosen to adjust the viscosity and friction characteristics to maximise the power output from the engine. The oils are constantly monitored by their manufacturers by X-Ray Fluorescence (XRF) to ensure that there is no build up of metals in the oil, indicating the onset of possible engine failure. The oils are designed to last around 400 km before being changed, compared to around 20,000 km for a road car.
WHAT MAKES THESE ENGINES DIFFERENT FROM ROAD CAR ENGINES?
You can often see road cars with engines larger than three litres, but these don't produce upwards of 750 bhp. So how do F1 engineers produce this amount of power from this size of engine? There are many differences between racing and road car engines that contribute to the large power difference.
F1 engines are designed to rev much higher than road units. Having double the revs should double the power output as there are twice as many engine cycles within a certain time. Unfortunately, as the revs increase, so does friction within the engine, so eventually, a point is reached where maximum power will occur, regardless of the number of revs. Running engines at high revs also increases the probability of mechanical failure as the components within the engines are being more highly stressed.
Exotic materials such as ceramics as mentioned earlier are employed to reduce the weight and strength of the engine. A limit of what materials can be used has been introduced to keep costs down, so only metal based (ferrous) materials can be used for the crankshaft and cams. Exotic materials can reduce the weight, and are often less susceptible to expansion with heat, but there can be draw backs. Incorporating these materials next to ferrous materials can cause problems. An exotic material such as carbon fibre will not expand as much as steel for example, so having these together in an engine would ruin the engine, as they run to such small tolerances. Although only 5% of the engine is built of such materials (compared with roughly 1/3 rd Steel, 2/3 rds Aluminium) they still make a worthwhile addition to power output.
EXHAUSTS
Exhausts are important to remove the waste gases from the engine, but they also play a part in determining the actual power of the engine. Due to the complicated harmonics within the engine, exhaust length can directly alter the power characteristics as pressure waves flow through the exhaust and back to the engine. Making sure these pulses are in time with the engine will enable more air to be sucked into the engine, hence more power. In 1998, Ferrari introduced exhausts that exited through the top of the engine cover above the gearbox (These are commonly called periscope exhausts due to their shape). Previously, all teams had the exhausts exiting through the diffuser, but this could alter the amount of downforce developed depending on whether the driver was on the throttle or not. Most teams have now copied the design, apart from McLaren, Williams and BAR. Cars that use the periscope exhausts often have gold or silver film protecting the suspension and lower rear wing from the high temperatures of the exhausts gases. Michael Schumacher retired from the 2000 Monaco GP because the heat from the exhausts cracked his suspension, so effectively protecting the suspension from this heat is crucial.
Exhausts also play a critical role in determining the shape of the rear of the car. If the engine designers can make the exhausts as compact as possible, it allows the 'Coke Bottle' shaped part of the car to start nearer the front of the sidepods, increasing the efficiency of the rear aerodynamics.
AIRBOX
Just above the driver's head there is a large opening that supplies the engine with air. It is commonly thought that the purpose of this is to 'ram' air into the engine like a supercharger, but the air-box does the opposite. Between the air-box and the engine there is a carbon fibre duct that gradually widens out as it approaches the engine. As the volume increases, it causes the air flow slow down, raising the pressure of the air which pushes it into the engine. The shape of this must be carefully designed to both fill all cylinders equally and not harm the exterior aerodynamics of the engine cover.
With ten times the horse-power of a normal road car, a Formula On engine produces quite amazing performance. With around 900 moving parts, the engines are very complex and must operate at very high temperatures.
Engines are currently limited to 3 litre, normally aspirated with 10 cylinders. These engines produce approximately 900 - 850 bhp and are made from forged aluminium alloy, and they must have no more than five valves per cylinder. In a quest to reduce the internal inertia of the moving parts, some components have been manufactured from ceramics. These materials are very strong in the direction they need to be, but have a very low density meaning that it takes less force to accelerate them, ideal for reducing the fuel consumption and efficiency of the engine. A similar material, beryllium alloy has been used, but the safety of it has been questioned. This material has been banned for 2001. The following list outlines some facts about a modern day F1 engine:
Random Facts:
· In an F1 engine revving at 18,000 rpm, the piston will travel up and down 300 times a second.
· Maximum piston acceleration is approximately 7,000 g (humans pass out at 7-8 g) which puts a load of over 3 tons on each connecting rod.
· The piston only moves around 50 mm but will accelerate from 0 - 100 kmh and back to 0 again in around 0.0025 seconds.
· If a connecting rod let go of its piston at maximum engine speed, the piston would have enough energy to travel vertically over 100 metres.
- If a water hose were to blow off, the complete cooling system would empty in just over a second.
The 1998 Mercedes-Benz started the trend of developing a new breed of smaller and lighter engines. Modern engines have a mass less than 100 kilograms and are deigned to be as low as possible to reduce the overall centre of gravity of the car. The engine must be as light as possible, but also as stiff as possible. This is because the only thing connecting the rear of the car to the chassis is the engine, so it must be able to take the huge cornering loads fro the suspension and aerodynamic forces from the large rear wing. A BMW.Williams spokesman said that the engine is fixed to the chassis with only four high strength suds, and is connected to the gearbox with six of these studs. Renault Sport has begun what is set to be a new trend in engine design, opening up the V-angle beyond 100 degrees. This allows the engine to sit lower in the car, reducing the centre of gravity, but the unit is currently suffering problems due to vibration and lack of stiffness.
The engine usually contains around 18 pints of oil, but this can often be seen to be spread all over the track! About 12 pints will be within the crankcase and cylinders at one time, with a dry-sump lubrication system changing the oil within the engine about four times a minute. The oil used is a special synthetic oil that are designed to withstand the high stress and temperatures present in an F1 engine. Ingredients are carefully chosen to adjust the viscosity and friction characteristics to maximise the power output from the engine. The oils are constantly monitored by their manufacturers by X-Ray Fluorescence (XRF) to ensure that there is no build up of metals in the oil, indicating the onset of possible engine failure. The oils are designed to last around 400 km before being changed, compared to around 20,000 km for a road car.
WHAT MAKES THESE ENGINES DIFFERENT FROM ROAD CAR ENGINES?
You can often see road cars with engines larger than three litres, but these don't produce upwards of 750 bhp. So how do F1 engineers produce this amount of power from this size of engine? There are many differences between racing and road car engines that contribute to the large power difference.
F1 engines are designed to rev much higher than road units. Having double the revs should double the power output as there are twice as many engine cycles within a certain time. Unfortunately, as the revs increase, so does friction within the engine, so eventually, a point is reached where maximum power will occur, regardless of the number of revs. Running engines at high revs also increases the probability of mechanical failure as the components within the engines are being more highly stressed.
Exotic materials such as ceramics as mentioned earlier are employed to reduce the weight and strength of the engine. A limit of what materials can be used has been introduced to keep costs down, so only metal based (ferrous) materials can be used for the crankshaft and cams. Exotic materials can reduce the weight, and are often less susceptible to expansion with heat, but there can be draw backs. Incorporating these materials next to ferrous materials can cause problems. An exotic material such as carbon fibre will not expand as much as steel for example, so having these together in an engine would ruin the engine, as they run to such small tolerances. Although only 5% of the engine is built of such materials (compared with roughly 1/3 rd Steel, 2/3 rds Aluminium) they still make a worthwhile addition to power output.
EXHAUSTS
Exhausts are important to remove the waste gases from the engine, but they also play a part in determining the actual power of the engine. Due to the complicated harmonics within the engine, exhaust length can directly alter the power characteristics as pressure waves flow through the exhaust and back to the engine. Making sure these pulses are in time with the engine will enable more air to be sucked into the engine, hence more power. In 1998, Ferrari introduced exhausts that exited through the top of the engine cover above the gearbox (These are commonly called periscope exhausts due to their shape). Previously, all teams had the exhausts exiting through the diffuser, but this could alter the amount of downforce developed depending on whether the driver was on the throttle or not. Most teams have now copied the design, apart from McLaren, Williams and BAR. Cars that use the periscope exhausts often have gold or silver film protecting the suspension and lower rear wing from the high temperatures of the exhausts gases. Michael Schumacher retired from the 2000 Monaco GP because the heat from the exhausts cracked his suspension, so effectively protecting the suspension from this heat is crucial.
Exhausts also play a critical role in determining the shape of the rear of the car. If the engine designers can make the exhausts as compact as possible, it allows the 'Coke Bottle' shaped part of the car to start nearer the front of the sidepods, increasing the efficiency of the rear aerodynamics.
AIRBOX
Just above the driver's head there is a large opening that supplies the engine with air. It is commonly thought that the purpose of this is to 'ram' air into the engine like a supercharger, but the air-box does the opposite. Between the air-box and the engine there is a carbon fibre duct that gradually widens out as it approaches the engine. As the volume increases, it causes the air flow slow down, raising the pressure of the air which pushes it into the engine. The shape of this must be carefully designed to both fill all cylinders equally and not harm the exterior aerodynamics of the engine cover.
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