http://www.fastestlaps.com/track2.html
Guess who's #67 ... Then check out the others that fall after. Not bad for the old Honda!
Guess who's #67 ... Then check out the others that fall after. Not bad for the old Honda!
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How does the NSX Compare?
- Thread starter votrix
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Actually it's #56:wink:
Even the regular 91 nsx 3.0 at #107 is faster than a 2010 Camaro SS #119 with 432HP by almost 4 seconds. Glad I bought the NSX instead of the Camaro. 
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^^
And the Ferrari Enzo @ 7:25.21 is 30 seconds faster per lap. which means it could take the almighty Enzo almost 15 laps to lap a NSX, but by then the Enzo would already have a "catastrophic" engine failure or something like that y the 3rd lap, so yeah, we are not in bad shape
And the Ferrari Enzo @ 7:25.21 is 30 seconds faster per lap. which means it could take the almighty Enzo almost 15 laps to lap a NSX, but by then the Enzo would already have a "catastrophic" engine failure or something like that y the 3rd lap, so yeah, we are not in bad shape
#56 is a NA2 Type-R. #107 is a NA1 Type-R, which is incorrectly stated here. Both tested by Best Motoring; both were NOT stock. Our NSX is #175.
These records have been discussed many times in the Track Talk forum.
These records have been discussed many times in the Track Talk forum.
^^
And the Ferrari Enzo @ 7:25.21 is 30 seconds faster per lap. which means it could take the almighty Enzo almost 15 laps to lap a NSX, but by then the Enzo would already have a "catastrophic" engine failure or something like that y the 3rd lap, so yeah, we are not in bad shape
Lol, actually when Marc whatshisname ran his hot laps for Black Falcon in the Enzo, those weird dampers definitely took a dump within a lap and a half.
On a track so big you can have a rainstorm on one end of the circuit and sun on the other, and even big enough to have a village complete with castle on the inside, the chances of getting consistent weather conditions for lap times are slim.
Damn beat me to it.
Not starting an argument but how is a Type R not stock? Also thread didn't specify US NSX just NSX:biggrin:
Also could you link me the thread on the discussion? Thanks
That is really odd a 22 sec difference?? The Ring times really are odd as far as different cars tested by different drivers on different days. The GTR and 911 Turbo fight really brought this to light.
Also is it just me or does it seem like Germans seem to always see the Japanese cars as second rate and drive them as such.
I know Sparrow will jump in on this but I've actually owned both an 05 M3 and 04 NSX and the performance is so identical I can't imagine the two having such drastically different Ring times. Oh well I imagine this thread is about to get on and popping ..lol
??
<table class="tableone" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">58.</td><td class="tdone">Honda NSX-R</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">7:56.733</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">156</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">´02</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">280 / 1270</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">Gan San</td></tr></tbody></table><table style="width: 505px; height: 47px;" class="tableone"><tbody><tr><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;"><table class="tableone" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">69.</td><td class="tdone">Honda NSX-R (3.0)</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">8:03.86</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">153</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">´</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">274 / 1281</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">Motoharu Kurosawa</td></tr></tbody></table></td><td class="tdone">
</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">
</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">
</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">
</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">
</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">
</td></tr></tbody></table><table class="tableone" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">109.</td><td class="tdone">Honda NSX 3.0 (1991)</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">8:16.15</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">149</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">´91</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">274 / 1362</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">Motoharu Kurosawa (b</td></tr></tbody></table><table class="tableone" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">177.</td><td class="tdone">Honda NSX 3.2</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">8:38.00</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">143</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">´97</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">280 / 1388</td><td class="tdone" style="text-align: center;">Sportauto</td></tr></tbody></table>
Looks like they have added a couple times since yesterday. It looks like the NSX-R 3.0 is #69 and the regular 3.0 is 109. The 3.2(likely a T model) is 177.
Any idea on what mods those non-stock NSX's had?
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I can tell you what I have found in my research.
The 8:16.15 was set and video documented in Best Motoring Video Special Vol. 15 (the NSX special). Gan San was driving what appears to be a formula red Euro-Spec NA1 in perfect conditions. It was a VERY hot lap and he was really ripping it through the course.
The 8:03.86 was set and video documented in Best Motoring Video Special Vol. 25 (the NA1 NSX-R special). Gan San was driving what appears to be an OEM NA1 Type-R in perfect conditions. One thing I noticed in the video is that the car was using the larger 16/17 wheels instead of the Enkei 15/16 that originally came with the R. We simply do not know if Honda did anything else to this car. It was a press car so keep that in mind.
The 7:56.73 was set and video documented in Best Motoring Video Special Vol. 55 (the NA2 NSX-R special). Gan San was driving what appears to be an OEM NA2 Type-R in perfect conditions. However, we now know that this car definitely was not stock. First, the suspension was tuned specifically for this run and Gan San's preferences. We know this because Vance used to own that suspension. Also, in longer clips of the video, you can clearly see several sets of black springs in the pit area- no doubt these are different rates used by Honda to tune for the particular track conditions that day. There are also several sets of tires, which could mean that Honda was using different rubber compounds too. As for the engine, well, we all know that Honda's press cars are notoriously fast and even the BM presenters allude to Honda's unadvertised tweaks to expalin their amazing performance.
Based on this research, I tend to believe the NA1 times as "OEM legit" more than the NA2 R. When those early NA1 runs were done, the Ring lap time was not as much of a marketing ploy as it is today (see the GT-R/Porsche controversy). There was less pressure to get a certain time and I think the runs were more a desire to "see what it can do" in the most unrestricted road course in the world. Also the time spread is reasonable, with the OEM NA1 giving up about 12 seconds to the Type R with the same driver in similar conditions.
As for the NA2 Type-R run, it's definitely a ringer in my mind. By 2002, in order to have a "legit" sports car, you had to break the 8 minute mark for all the mag racers out there. I'm sure Honda was feeling the heat for not bumping the NSX up to a V8 or 3.5L (this was right at the time of the 02 refresh which drew a lot of criticism from the press). This probably added pressure for them to save face, which resulted in a full factory-backed effort to get the NSX under 8 minutes. They did, but I think the time deserves an *.
The 8:16.15 was set and video documented in Best Motoring Video Special Vol. 15 (the NSX special). Gan San was driving what appears to be a formula red Euro-Spec NA1 in perfect conditions. It was a VERY hot lap and he was really ripping it through the course.
The 8:03.86 was set and video documented in Best Motoring Video Special Vol. 25 (the NA1 NSX-R special). Gan San was driving what appears to be an OEM NA1 Type-R in perfect conditions. One thing I noticed in the video is that the car was using the larger 16/17 wheels instead of the Enkei 15/16 that originally came with the R. We simply do not know if Honda did anything else to this car. It was a press car so keep that in mind.
The 7:56.73 was set and video documented in Best Motoring Video Special Vol. 55 (the NA2 NSX-R special). Gan San was driving what appears to be an OEM NA2 Type-R in perfect conditions. However, we now know that this car definitely was not stock. First, the suspension was tuned specifically for this run and Gan San's preferences. We know this because Vance used to own that suspension.
Also, in longer clips of the video, you can clearly see several sets of black springs in the pit area- no doubt these are different rates used by Honda to tune for the particular track conditions that day. There are also several sets of tires, which could mean that Honda was using different rubber compounds too. As for the engine, well, we all know that Honda's press cars are notoriously fast and even the BM presenters allude to Honda's unadvertised tweaks to expalin their amazing performance.Based on this research, I tend to believe the NA1 times as "OEM legit" more than the NA2 R. When those early NA1 runs were done, the Ring lap time was not as much of a marketing ploy as it is today (see the GT-R/Porsche controversy). There was less pressure to get a certain time and I think the runs were more a desire to "see what it can do" in the most unrestricted road course in the world. Also the time spread is reasonable, with the OEM NA1 giving up about 12 seconds to the Type R with the same driver in similar conditions.
As for the NA2 Type-R run, it's definitely a ringer in my mind. By 2002, in order to have a "legit" sports car, you had to break the 8 minute mark for all the mag racers out there. I'm sure Honda was feeling the heat for not bumping the NSX up to a V8 or 3.5L (this was right at the time of the 02 refresh which drew a lot of criticism from the press). This probably added pressure for them to save face, which resulted in a full factory-backed effort to get the NSX under 8 minutes. They did, but I think the time deserves an *.
Those Type-Rs were not tested as stock. There are JDM stock Type-R NSXs, but those tested by Best Motoring were not. This should not be hard to understand. Like Honcho said, there were mods on suspensions, tires, ECU, and etc.
Honcho already stated very detailed information. So I am just adding a couple of things. First, none of those records are official, and everyone needs to be careful when they use them to draw conclusions. The tests done by Sport Auto magazine were mostly in bone stock condition, despite weather condition. The ones done by Best Motoring were almost never in stock condition. It's easy to google those information. The 8:03 was from a Honda NSX-R (NA1). And when you do google you'll find it had no spare tire, no ESC, no airbag, non-factory chair, and a fine line of "Omit the safe equipment model" that you need to read The wiki version list most of the "fine prints" you want to know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring_lap_times
Below is one of the thread that we discussed NSX Nurburgring lap times:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133587&page=5
Also, in the below thread, we talked about S2k and NSX performance on track. My point of view was that NSX is a bit faster than S2000, and Billy gave this thought about they're really really close with the right mods, if S2000 isn't the faster car. The Nurburgring records were also a part of the discussion:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131048&page=4
delete, inaccurate post (edited to remove knee-jerk statement )
)
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Well but no one believes what BM says but on this point we feel them to be honest? Tscuchiya was making the whole press care statement when put his modded suspension NSX-R up against the factory. Funny he beat the factory quite handily and stayed ahead the whole time.
The 7:56.73 was set and video documented in Best Motoring Video Special Vol. 55 (the NA2 NSX-R special). Gan San was driving what appears to be an OEM NA2 Type-R in perfect conditions. However, we now know that this car definitely was not stock. First, the suspension was tuned specifically for this run and Gan San's preferences. We know this because Vance used to own that suspension.
Vance claimed this but honestly it was never proven one way or the other. Were the spring rates different? The whole selling point was that the suspension was in a video? No all of Hondas press cars aren't notoriously fast. The Zanardi press car was not a special tune and I've seen other tests where press cars performed very close to each other. Of other than BM saying Honda press cars are fast and tweaked who else makes this claim??
Ring times have been an issue since the GTR but they were a footnote and not that important 7-8years ago. Actually I was referring to the time differences between NA1 and NA2. The NA2 is is showing 8:38secs vs 8:16 for the NA1. Thoughts on that?
See this is an issue as there are some serious legit sports cars that don't make the 8sec. I'd like someone here to tell me that the new M3 isn't a serious legit sportscar. You know you my boy Honcho and we even designed a car together but I think you might want to look at the cars that are over 8secs and possibly reconsider this train of thought.
Actually it's Honcho's belief and nothing that he can prove. Understand J while I'm being argumentative I'm not doing so in a disrespectful way.
Also all NSX-R's are "modded" NSX's from the factory and specially tuned for track/racing just like all/most track edition cars are from other manufacturers.
No NSX-R comes factory with a spare tire as it's removed for weight savings. My S2000 CR doesn't come with a spare tire either would that be considered non factory. NSX's don't have "ESC" and TCS is not an option on the 02 NSX-R. Factory airbags are "optional" on the NA2 Type R. The seat that comes with the NA2 NSX-R is factory for that model and you can see in the vid they are sitting on the factory NA2 NSX-R seat. I didn't have to use google as I actually have the 04 NSX type R catalog and all the items I'm referencing actually have those in English to see.
Thanks for these man I'll go read up now!
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"See this is an issue as there are some serious legit sports cars that don't make the 8sec. I'd like someone here to tell me that the new M3 isn't a serious legit sportscar."
In my opinion, the M3 has never been a serious legit sportscar. It is a sedan/coupe that has been factory modified for more performance-oriented driving. It is not a sportscar and I doubt it will ever be.
In my opinion, the M3 has never been a serious legit sportscar. It is a sedan/coupe that has been factory modified for more performance-oriented driving. It is not a sportscar and I doubt it will ever be.
LOL I guess I asked for that Liquid. I respect your opinion sir even though it differs from mine:biggrin:
Hi WingZ,
I am a little confused about the ground you're holding. It looks to me you're challenging both sides.
The lap time of our NA2 NSXs is #175. That's all I am saying. As I don't live in Japan, the stats of the Type-R means very little to me. You can argue all day about "this is optional", and "that doesn't come with". After all, I seriously doubt any of a factory production car would come with a fine print of "Omit the safety equipment model". If you'd like to set the Best Motoring records as the holy grail, I am totally fine with it. I don't really believe in BM's test myself. It's like everyone knows Motoharu Kurosawa is under Honda's marketing payroll, but nobody can prove it(actually I believe they did). I think they did everything they possibly could to push those records. The 8:16 from the NA1 type-R(by BM) against the 8:38 NA2 stock(by Sports Auto) has been loved by the NA1 owners on this forum. However they're missing the point of one is a Type-R and one isn't. But if you line up those records they make some sense: NA2 type-R > NA1 type-R > NA2.
As for the 8 minute mark, I have a different opinion. One simply cannot judge rather a car is a "legit sports car" by a "8 minute mark". You must consider the time and the background of its making. Sure, when I look at the list today, most of the post-8-minutes cars are not. But NSX was, and still is a true uncompromised sports car; it's just a little outdated. It is simply no longer a very fast car, and it was never THAT fast.
I am a little confused about the ground you're holding. It looks to me you're challenging both sides.
The lap time of our NA2 NSXs is #175. That's all I am saying. As I don't live in Japan, the stats of the Type-R means very little to me. You can argue all day about "this is optional", and "that doesn't come with". After all, I seriously doubt any of a factory production car would come with a fine print of "Omit the safety equipment model". If you'd like to set the Best Motoring records as the holy grail, I am totally fine with it. I don't really believe in BM's test myself. It's like everyone knows Motoharu Kurosawa is under Honda's marketing payroll, but nobody can prove it(actually I believe they did). I think they did everything they possibly could to push those records. The 8:16 from the NA1 type-R(by BM) against the 8:38 NA2 stock(by Sports Auto) has been loved by the NA1 owners on this forum. However they're missing the point of one is a Type-R and one isn't. But if you line up those records they make some sense: NA2 type-R > NA1 type-R > NA2.
As for the 8 minute mark, I have a different opinion. One simply cannot judge rather a car is a "legit sports car" by a "8 minute mark". You must consider the time and the background of its making. Sure, when I look at the list today, most of the post-8-minutes cars are not. But NSX was, and still is a true uncompromised sports car; it's just a little outdated. It is simply no longer a very fast car, and it was never THAT fast.
Perry, I hear ya bud. Short version is I actually agree with you, but wanted to present a balanced analysis. I'll respond in more detail later.
I'm sorry Jas I'm not really arguing one over the other just that it's all pretty much speculation.
Agreed I would never claim the NA2 type R time for our cars as we get the least sporting NSX option made by Honda. Actually I wasn't arguing that by any means as the post on the internet is just incorrect as whoever put it there didn't read the brochure on the car. Here's a link to the one I have
http://japamart.com/auctool.php?url=http://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b108799352
It's about $6 bucks plus shipping. Very informative. Most people don't seem to have taken the time to find out how different the US version is from the Type R. You mentioned different ECU and that is correct but all Type R's have a different ECU from regular or even Type S as the R has a differently ( more aggressive ) TPS and ABS engagement. Also a different MB cylinder.
I'd seen that before but never understood why it's there and the "esc" clearly shows the person who put it in wasn't versed on the vehicle. The safety equipment is omitted but can be put back on. Honda intended it to basically be just a track car.
I don't and never said that. You have to tell me where you get that implication as mostly what I said is people don't believe BM except when it seemed to suit them. Much like Top Gear BM is just for entertainment. I saw in the thread that Billy referenced the Sport auto time ,but why should that be believed over the BM time since the BM time has video
Well as you read in my post I agreed with this point as I see several cars over the 8sec mark and those are some serious machines. What happened after the GTR is all of a sudden car companies started to hire professional race car drivers to do the laptimes for testing as the Ring became the big thing to do. That in and of itself changed the entire dynamic.
The NSX as far as we can see wasn't Ring tested that Honda ever spoke of. Honda didn't start Ring testing until again after the GTR because they wanted the HSV to beat the GTR's ring time and we all know what happened with that car ..lol
Perry, I hear ya bud. Short version is I actually agree with you, but wanted to present a balanced analysis. I'll respond in more detail later.
No problem man my only for is that we video evidence of the run and in most cases unless proven altered people go with the video vs the non video evidence ..or am I wrong on that count counselor:biggrin:
Makes no difference to me as a different day different driver different time..whatcha gonna do.
Detlef sells stuff and says "Honda" used it as Ring testing but all we have really is his word as have you ever seen Honda Ring testing before the HSV
Good to know that we're on the same page now.
I don't know about Billy, but I prefer the Sport Auto #s because they're usually more conservative. They don't use sports tires, they don't add modifications, and in most cases, they use the same driver.
True story. That's not only happening on BM records, but everything else as well.
I don't know about Billy, but I prefer the Sport Auto #s because they're usually more conservative. They don't use sports tires, they don't add modifications, and in most cases, they use the same driver.
True story. That's not only happening on BM records, but everything else as well.
Lol, time to put my attorney hat on.
What we're dealing with here is what we professionals call "circumstantial evidence." Circumstantial evidence is information that requires someone to infer a connection to a probative conclusion. It is different and not as useful as “direct evidence” in proving something to be true. Direct evidence of Honda’s tampering would be Gan San opening the hatch and pointing to a GT35 turbo, saying to the camera “we added a turbo for this high speed run.” That doesn’t require any inference to be made on your part. It is direct evidence that the NSX-R in the video is not a stock car. By contrast, circumstantial evidence would be seeing a whole mess of black suspension springs laying on the ground. We have no idea if they are different rates- they could all be the same. Nor do we even know how they were used on the car, if at all. Thus, all we can do is infer that perhaps they were used. In essence, an inference is just informed speculation.With that in mind, Perry is absolutely correct. All of the naysayers and conspiracy folks rely on circumstantial evidence at best to support their claims. If I were drafting a legal brief on this issue, I would say that these people have no basis to support their conclusion other than tenuous circumstantial evidence and their own personal speculation. In court, that falls far short of the kind of proof needed to prevail. At the end of the day, it is simply informed speculation.
On the other side, we have the facts. There is a video of Gan San driving what appears to be a stock NA2 NSX-R around the Ring. The video is a continuous shot with a stopwatch running the whole time. He starts the lap at 0 and he crosses the finish line 7 minutes and 56 seconds later. These are facts, not speculation. No one has produced any evidence, other than circumstantial, anecdotal or speculative facts, that the car was modified to obtain a faster time. Therefore, I believe these lap times. I thnk that they are more a credit to Mr. Kurosawa’s driving skill and familiarity with the NSX platform than anything else.
Funny how it was named Best Handling Car by C&D in 1997 (NSX was in the competition).
The BMW E46 CSL M3 also has a faster lap time @ the ring. In every sense of performance, the CSL out does any NSX. If that isn't sportscar qualities, than I doubt the NSX can be called a sportscar either.
If you accept BM's NSX-R time as valid than you are guilty of a type 1 error. As if any of us need to explain, BM is notorious for playing favorites with the NSX.Lol, time to put my attorney hat on.
With that in mind, Perry is absolutely correct. All of the naysayers and conspiracy folks rely on circumstantial evidence at best to support their claims. If I were drafting a legal brief on this issue, I would say that these people have no basis to support their conclusion other than tenuous circumstantial evidence and their own personal speculation. In court, that falls far short of the kind of proof needed to prevail. At the end of the day, it is simply informed speculation.
On the other side, we have the facts. There is a video of Gan San driving what appears to be a stock NA2 NSX-R around the Ring. The video is a continuous shot with a stopwatch running the whole time. He starts the lap at 0 and he crosses the finish line 7 minutes and 56 seconds later. These are facts, not speculation. No one has produced any evidence, other than circumstantial, anecdotal or speculative facts, that the car was modified to obtain a faster time. Therefore, I believe these lap times. I thnk that they are more a credit to Mr. Kurosawa’s driving skill and familiarity with the NSX platform than anything else.
<TABLE class="normal roottable"><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>8:38</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Honda NSX</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Sport Auto, (08/1997)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
That is the only time that can be considered a valid benchmark. Does it also bring me joy to know that with mods, the NSX can run a sub 8 minute time @ the ring, of course it does but just because there isnt any direct evidence on the internet to prove BM's shady tactics, doesnt mean they didn't cheat.
lol you guys are all awsome,I say group buy on these http://www.zazzle.com/bench_race_champion_2009_tshirt-235446061327638655
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