Hubcentric rings. Street/Track what to use.

TURBO2GO

TURBO2GO

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I spent a good amount of time on the interwebZes trying to get info on polycabonate versus aluminum hubcentric rings. There is a lot of BS out there. Some guys claiming you don't need rigs at all.... some saying plastic ones deform and melt... one guy eve saying he has seen 1000F on the rings and the aluminum ones melt. Now I don't know the melting point of aluminum, but.... Come on....

I just got my new wheels. They come with plastic rings (well none because apparently they were forgotten but Vivid is sending a set). But I want somethingt that can handle track work. So first question is.... are platic ones really bad? second, are aluminum ones really better? what do the guys that know this and run on the track use?
 
Plastic one will melt or break with out you knowing unless you take your wheels off and check. Aluminum ones are better and is the only way to go. Come on Dave, out of all people you should be the first person to know this. I don't even know why you are posting and asking such question. LOL :tongue:.
 
I am asking because not all plastics are bad... there are some materials probably as strong as some metals these days. So I didn't know if there was something someone knows of that I don't. Also I a wondering if aluminum ones have any issues. One issue I can see is metal rings may fuse with the wheel over time. So where did you get your rings and how much did you pay?
 
Dave,

When I was running Enkei RFP01s on the track I had the Aluminum hubcentric rings from Dali. I kept braking wheel studs. Replaced with ARP studs. Broke them too. I mean I pulled off track and found two on the left rear snapped and one on the right rear. Wasn't over-torqued, I'm the only one who who worked on the car. Checked the torque with another wrench.

But after no one being able to tell me why, I pulled the hubcentric rings off and ran without rings - NEVER broke another stud.
 
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Hummm, that is weird. Hub rings are suppose to center your wheels and keeping it from vibration.

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Must be a DALI thing :smile:..
 
CL65 Captain said:
Dave,

When I was running Enkei RFP01s on the track I had the Aluminum hubcentric rings from Dali. I kept braking wheel studs. Replaced with ARP studs. Broke them too. I mean I pulled off track and found two on the left rear snapped and one on the right rear. Wasn't over-torqued, I'm the only one who who worked on the car. Checked the torque with another wrench.

But after no one being able to tell me why, I pulled the hubcentric rings off and ran without rings - NEVER broke another stud.
Click to expand...

That's interesting Jim. I am wondering why... The ring must have been introducing some sort of vibration/stress to the wheels. Are you comfortable without rings? I mean one benefit of plastic rings may actually be that they may absorb minute vibrations.... but going lug centric.. yikes... you are asking the studs to take the entire load. I wouldn't do it. You can bend studs.

The whole thing seems hack to me to be honest, which makes me like OEM. It seems a proper wheel should be bored out for your car.

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Jim my only thought is that the rings were not perfectly round. That pushes the wheel ever so sightly more in one direction. The lugnts then torque down trying to fight that change in spacing of the wheel. What takes the stress? The studs. Constant pressure from two opposing sides and eventually, snap.... I just feel the tolerances were too loose on production. This is what I am trying to avoid. Any mickey mouse shit...
 
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I've run the Polycarbonate rings and never had a problem on the track with them breaking or melting. I do about 4-5 track days a year in that car. I got my rings from eBay.

As for Aluminum I assume that when it heats up the expansion is probably what is causing Jim to break studs. I can't confirm that, but that's a theory.
 
Aluminum rings sit inside the wheel hub, and if they expand they will only put pressure on the wheel. How can it affect the stud?
 
Dave,

I broke studs on BOTH sides rear so it wasn't just one ring that was slightly out of round. Talked to Cody as he had the same Enkei RPF01s and he said he didn't use rings. As soon as I removed them I NEVER broke another one.

Why? No idea, but it did immediately fix the problem. I had never broken a stud with OEM wheels. I broke at least a half dozen studs with the Enkeis and Hubcentric rings. Removed rings, no more snapping studs with the Enkeis.
 
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CL65 Captain said:
Dave,

I broke studs on BOTH sides rear so it wasn't just one ring that was slightly out of round. Talked to Cody as he had the same Enkei RPF01s and he said he didn't use rings. As soon as I removed them I NEVER broke another one.

Why? No idea, but it did immediately fix the problem. I had never broken a stud with OEM wheels. I broke at least a half dozen studs with the Enkeis and Hubcentric rings. Removed rings, no more snapping studs with the Enkeis.
Click to expand...

That is bizzare....
 
CL65 Captain said:
Dave,

I broke studs on BOTH sides rear so it wasn't just one ring that was slightly out of round. Talked to Cody as he had the same Enkei RPF01s and he said he didn't use rings. As soon as I removed them I NEVER broke another one.

Why? No idea, but it did immediately fix the problem. I had never broken a stud with OEM wheels. I broke at least a half dozen studs with the Enkeis and Hubcentric rings. Removed rings, no more snapping studs with the Enkeis.
Click to expand...

Of course you never broke a stud with OEM wheels, they are hubcentric. :smile: I broke plenty of wheel studs running without any hubcentric rings on aftermarket wheels before I knew I was supposed to use them. I doubt the enkei's are hubcentric so that makes no sense at all about removing them, the wheel would not center on the hub and it would shear load the studs. Dave, the plastic ones may become brittle with age/heat and the aluminum ones use aluminum because it is very dimensionally stable.
 
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I have been running aluminum rings on my track wheels for ever........
 
TURBO2GO said:
Aluminum rings sit inside the wheel hub, and if they expand they will only put pressure on the wheel. How can it affect the stud?
Click to expand...

The Polycarbonate rings I use have a slight lip on them that goes underneath the wheel. Looks like the aluminum ones also have this lip.
hubcentric-rings-alluminum.image.jpg


My best guess is that in the metal expansion (which expands in all directions), the lip presses against the hub and the wheel itself, which put additional forces on the studs. But who knows..

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I'd just get a set of both. I mean they're cheap enough. It's always good to have an extra set anyway..

The only ring set you could possibily run into problems is the 70.1mm to 73mm (or whatever your wheel's centerbore is) since it's so thin (I think that's the front set).
The rear's 64mm to 73mm is pretty darn thick.
 
What is the NSX wheel center bore? 70.1 and 64.1 front/rear? That's what the wiki shows but several online places were showing me same bore front and rear on the NSX. My advans all show 73. That front ring is going to be very thin.

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Are these rings accurate to 0.1? How tight are the tolerances? I've seen most now have a slit cut in them. I am guessing that is to allow for expansion when hot, or it may be to ease installation but I am not sure of the negative effects of this slit. Learning a lot here...

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docjohn said:
I have been running aluminum rings on my track wheels for ever........
Click to expand...

Do you have a slit cut in them?
 
Centerbore is 70.1mm front & 64.1 rear. I heard it was done that way to prevent unknowing owners & mechanics from Rotating tires.

In any case, I always buy the ones going from 70.1mm to 73mm & 64.1mm to 73mm. I highly doubt they are accurate to the 0.1mm though, but every set I've had sits tight with no play. When you're removing the wheels, I found that the front rings generally stick to the hub, while the back rings stick to the wheel.

That's just been my experience though with my polycarbonate rings.
 
TURBO2GO said:
What is the NSX wheel center bore? 70.1 and 64.1 front/rear? That's what the wiki shows but several online places were showing me same bore front and rear on the NSX. My advans all show 73. That front ring is going to be very thin.

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Are these rings accurate to 0.1? How tight are the tolerances? I've seen most now have a slit cut in them. I am guessing that is to allow for expansion when hot, or it may be to ease installation but I am not sure of the negative effects of this slit. Learning a lot here...

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Do you have a slit cut in them?
Click to expand...

nope.....
 
Very strange issues with the studs failing while using hub centric rings. It is not a metal expansion problem, that extra load would go into the shear resistance of the properly torqued joint (friction) and not stress up the studs at all.

Perhaps aggressive offsets would add extra bending moments into the pattern? I would have to run some calculations but I don't think anything would come of it.

My advice is that if you have a heavily modified car you should up your bolt torque to 80% bolt proof. The joint is probably designed to 50%. No reason to believe the stock Honda torque is enough for higher torque cars fitted with BBKs.

Sorry for the engineering rambling, but who could advise against using centering rings?
 
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Tangoman said:
My advice is that if you have a heavily modified car you should up your bolt torque to 80% bolt proof. The joint is probably designed to 50%.
Click to expand...

Can you say this in English? :)
 
Jim, can you clarify what brand and size of hubcentric spacers/rings you are/were using? The 15 mm with OEM/ARP regular size studs (which would be short), 25 mm with longer studs (supplied with H&R or ARP) or rings that have embedded bolts/nuts?

As an fyi, the ring/spacer does NOT seat the same way after track use when compared to before. My 15 mm H&R hubcentric "spacers" seat relatively easily when cold though one of them needs a bit of a push. But after tracking, removing them when they are still hot takes some effort as they seem to bind on the studs - presumably from expansion. Hence, it is possible that for a "spacer" that is machined with less exacting tolerance might indeed break a stud. I no longer use my 15 mm H&R spacers for track with my Volk track wheels; but prior to that, I have had no problems when using them with OEM wheels and R compound tires on the track.

Edit: I misread the OP wrt the question being "rings" and not spacers. And as an fyi, I torque at 85 lbs-foot.
 
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