Koni shock data- setup?

[Honcho]

Just got this shock data for my Koni Yellows from Koni:

8241-1117sport= rebound 1400n bump 900n at 75mm strike, 84rpm

8241-1118sport= rebound 2100n bump 900n at 75mm stroke, 84rpm

The tech advised that rebound was only shown at full soft. All shock data I've seen is usually in kg @ 0.3 m/s. What the heck does this data mean? Newtons? Rpm??

I presently have Comptech Sport springs on these shocks--> F150-200lbs R150-250lbs. I notice that soft or small bumps ride fairly well. But, large bumps or ruts knock the fillings out of my teeth. I swear it feels like the car is bottoming out. But, is it? Since my springs start at 150lbs, am I basically riding on the shocks because the springs are too soft? Would Zanardi rates help with this? The car handles great but the suspension feels "off" when it comes to bumps. I feel like my springs are too soft for my shocks...:frown:

 

[goldNSX]

What you need is an expert which only can rarely be found. I'm none of them but tried to be so (but still failed )

Your data shown are values at 0.26 or 0.3 m/s. I usually ignored them as well as the stroke. Laster one only means that how far they can go out of the shock body, nothing else. rpm is a info about the maschine I believe, not sure. Ignore it, all you shock has to do is damping.

Your Koni's are quite soft at 0.3 m/s. What they don't show is the high-speed values at 0.39 or 0.52 m/s which are fairly important. My friend had Konis for a short period of time and they were harsher than the Bilsteins I borrowed him.

I guess it's not the spring being too soft but the shock being too harsh. Replace the shocks, not the springs or better replace both and go for a combination that has been designed as one system.

Here are the Bilstein's specs by the measurement of greenberet: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77587
I've tried some different revalvings with the Zanadi springs and the H&R coilover kit. I've diagrams if you like.

 

[Honcho]

Thanks Gold, I figured you would respond, as I've followed your Bilstein efforts over the years. Based on Greenberet's OEM 1991 shock dyno data, it seemms the Konis are valved very similar to OEM on compression:

Front:

1991 --> 906 N @ 0.262 m/s
Koni --> 900 N @ 0.3 m/s (assumed)

Rear:

1991 --> 942 N @ 0.262 m/s
Koni --> 900 N @ 0.3 m/s (assumed)

Interestingly, despite numberous posts over the years that the Konis are stiffer than OEM on bump, this data shows they are actually softer. The rebound numbers are:

Front:

1991 --> 927 N @ 0.262 m/s
Koni --> 1400 N @ 0.3 m/s (assumed)

Rear:

1991 --> 2140 N @ 0.262 m/s
Koni --> 2100 N @ 0.3 m/s (assumed)

According to the Koni rep, the rebound data is full soft only, so basically the Koni shocks are similar to OEM on full soft and can be adjusted (at least in rebound) stiffer. I am wondering if I should

1. Stick with the Koni/Comptech Sport setup;
2. Grab a set of Type-S springs and re-valve Konis to match; or
3. Just buy the Type-S suspension and be done with it.

 

[docjohn]

I can't help with specific rates or hard data but the zanardi springs work just fine with the koni yellow shocks.I ran them for some years.

 

[goldNSX]

I can't help with specific rates or hard data but the zanardi springs work just fine with the koni yellow shocks.I ran them for some years.

Just wondering: on the track?

 

[docjohn]

Just wondering: on the track?

yes lots of track,and to my knowledge this exact suspension is now doing many track events in another NE members car.

 

[goldNSX]

Honcho,

1st of all. If you don't mind about the amount of money and the higher ride level go with the Type-S suspension. You get a fully tuned system by Honda. That's better than experimenting like I did. :wink:

Just as an info: if the Koni's are not shorter than stock you need to use a rebound in the rear if you go with Type-S springs. Revalving is always risky. Don't ask me how I know. Once is was too soft, then too hard, then too soft and so on. You won't run into that problem if you have a fully tuned system or go with fully adjustable coil-over like KW V3 or the like. The only thing that annoys me with KW V3 is that are noisy or not a silent as OEM is which makes the car sound cheapo. But the KW V3 has been the best one of all I've tried. It soakes up pumps like nothing and it's very, very fast. I'm not sure of their longterm quality I've to say.

Numbers: Please remind that the data is only provided for 0.3 m/s. In my link you can see the characteristics at different velocities. Bilsteins are soft at lower velocities and I guess that's the keypoint when comparing them to Konis. I strongly believe that Konis are offering much more damping forces at lower values which is good for steering response and directability but no good for bumps. It all depends on what you can take and favor. I love the Bilsteins charateristics but sometimes they are a tad too soft.

Good luck!

 

[dpnsx]

Honcho,

Take this with a grain of salt, but I believe the proper way to interpret the data you were given is as follows:

1 N is 9.8 kgf (kilograms-force), and the shocks have a 75mm stroke, which means that 1 revolution is a 150mm round-trip. Thus 84 rpm corresponds to (84 rpm)*(.15 m/rev)*(1 min/60 sec) = .21 m/s

So I think your shock data should read

8241-1117sport= rebound 143 kg bump 92 kg at .21 m/s

8241-1118sport= rebound 214 kg bump 92 kg at .21 m/s

You can see that while the koni's appear to be softer than OEM, that could be because they're being measured at a slower speed. The shock force will increase at higher speeds.

 

[Honcho]

Thanks guys for helping clear this up. My main problem is that I love the handling and stance of my car with my current setup, but I really can't stand the bone-jarring hits. If I had a Type-R or super crazy JDM coilover, I would expect this sort of violent ride, but with near-OEM springs and Konis, I think it should ride better. Another thought I had is could it be the bump stops? I'm pretty sure the ones on there are the original 91 parts. That rubber must be rock hard by now...

 

[goldNSX]

Another thought I had is could it be the bump stops?

Depends on how low your car is. I've driven several cars which were simply too low. They rode on their bump stops, not very sexy driving. :tongue:

 

[Honcho]

My drop is 19mm on the Comptechs, measured per the service manual.

 

[Mac Attack]

Thanks guys for helping clear this up. My main problem is that I love the handling and stance of my car with my current setup, but I really can't stand the bone-jarring hits. If I had a Type-R or super crazy JDM coilover, I would expect this sort of violent ride, but with near-OEM springs and Konis, I think it should ride better. Another thought I had is could it be the bump stops? I'm pretty sure the ones on there are the original 91 parts. That rubber must be rock hard by now...

Most people neglect the adverse ride impact that low profile tires have for harsh impacts (essentially quick damper piston velocities). That's where those nice 4-way adjustable damper designs come in handy!

I have what could be classified as a "harsh" JDM-ish coilover (KSport Circuit Pros). They have a 560lb/in front spring rate and 450lb/in rear rate. So they're pretty stiff. I haven't seen a shock dyno of mine and I haven't taken them apart to see what shim design they have, but these actually feel pretty comfortable for daily driving duties. A big part of that's because I have the '92 OEM fat fives on there!

Dave

 

[Honcho]

Most people neglect the adverse ride impact that low profile tires have for harsh impacts (essentially quick damper piston velocities). That's where those nice 4-way adjustable damper designs come in handy!

I have what could be classified as a "harsh" JDM-ish coilover (KSport Circuit Pros). They have a 560lb/in front spring rate and 450lb/in rear rate. So they're pretty stiff. I haven't seen a shock dyno of mine and I haven't taken them apart to see what shim design they have, but these actually feel pretty comfortable for daily driving duties. A big part of that's because I have the '92 OEM fat fives on there!

Dave

Dave I am on 2002+ OEM wheels with 215/40 and 275/40 tires.

 

[Mac Attack]

I'll trade ya!

Just kidding :smile: My '92 has worn nothing her whole life except for the OEM fat fives. I would only consider switching with a brake rotor upsize, but certainly understand the old look is not for everyone!

Dave

 

[jmarksnsx]

Anyone know how the Koni Yellows compare to the Zanardi shocks?

 

[Honcho]

Someone dynoed them way way back and found the rears are similar but the front Koni are not as stiff as the Zanardi.

 

[jmarksnsx]

Someone dynoed them way way back and found the rears are similar but the front Koni are not as stiff as the Zanardi.

Found it here:

http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Suspension