Power restrictions
I dont think that Honda can put more than 280 ponies in any car. Isnt there a restricion on that in Japan
I dont think that Honda can put more than 280 ponies in any car. Isnt there a restricion on that in Japan
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New NSX Confirmed!
- Thread starter Jimbo
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Re: Power restrictions
It is a mere "gentleman's agreement" between JDM manufacturers. Not a restriction at all, it is just about publishing numbers to the Japanese public. If the next NSX does 276 bhp, fine with me...
... as long as it's 276 bhp at 4000 RPM, with 5 more grands to go
NMNSX said:
It is a mere "gentleman's agreement" between JDM manufacturers. Not a restriction at all, it is just about publishing numbers to the Japanese public. If the next NSX does 276 bhp, fine with me...
... as long as it's 276 bhp at 4000 RPM, with 5 more grands to go
Actually, as you get in the 0-60 in 4 second realm, you reach the point of diminishing returns. There's only so much traction to be had when you're limited to rubber tires and blacktop streets.
You can go to 4 wheel drive or super-sticky tires and optimize weight transfer but at some point you're limited by the laws of physics.
Even these 500-600hp monsters don't seem to get significantly faster than 4 seconds in the 0-60 run.
Perhaps JATO assist?
Re: Re: Power restrictions
Nissan already sells an Infiniti sedan in the US with a V8 with an advertised horsepower rating of somewhere around 350hp. I'm curious if it's sold in Japan, and if so, what it's rated at...and if it's rated at 276hp, how much power it _really_ produces.
apapada said:It is a mere "gentleman's agreement" between JDM manufacturers. Not a restriction at all, it is just about publishing numbers to the Japanese public. If the next NSX does 276 bhp, fine with me...
... as long as it's 276 bhp at 4000 RPM, with 5 more grands to go
Nissan already sells an Infiniti sedan in the US with a V8 with an advertised horsepower rating of somewhere around 350hp. I'm curious if it's sold in Japan, and if so, what it's rated at...and if it's rated at 276hp, how much power it _really_ produces.
I think you guys have touched on the HP issue.
I will just say this 300 to 400 is fine if the car weighs 2000 lbs! LOL Actually my honest opinion is I dont care how much HP it makes. As long as the performance numbers are high! I think the idea behind the NSX from the beginning is not HUGE HP numbers but huge performance numbers and honda reliability.
Honda set the bar for exotic cars back in 1991, now with all the new technology I hope Honda shakes thinngs up again.
I also hope those kick ass doors make it into production!!! I doubt it but it would be hella cool
I will just say this 300 to 400 is fine if the car weighs 2000 lbs! LOL Actually my honest opinion is I dont care how much HP it makes. As long as the performance numbers are high! I think the idea behind the NSX from the beginning is not HUGE HP numbers but huge performance numbers and honda reliability.
Honda set the bar for exotic cars back in 1991, now with all the new technology I hope Honda shakes thinngs up again.
I also hope those kick ass doors make it into production!!! I doubt it but it would be hella cool
Rex said:
Totally agree!
AND Why spend a lot of energy in weight savings and not optimizing that work with big power?????????
If they don't, IMO, it is only doing 50% of job.
But I am sure that the new HSC will have easily more than
115 hp/L X 3,8 L which is over 400 hp.
why would they mislead the market?
in general, i agree. my perspective is if they announce the new car and say it's coming in <1 year and has >300 hp, they'll negatively impact current model sales.
looks like an interesting ride and i'd be surprised if it wasn't at the high end of 300hp. sign me up
be well.
hal
dnyhof said:
in general, i agree. my perspective is if they announce the new car and say it's coming in <1 year and has >300 hp, they'll negatively impact current model sales.
looks like an interesting ride and i'd be surprised if it wasn't at the high end of 300hp. sign me up
be well.
hal
New NSX
One important reason I purchased the NSX is because you can enjoy driving an exotic without constant repairs and or breakdowns.
The NSX will probably never be the top dog in the 1/4 mile or on top end. But it will last without breaking your bank account. If money is no object I doubt the NSX is your primary or only sports car.
I'll be happy if the new NSX can be fairly competive BUT RELIABLE.
There will always be Corvette's or Vipers with more horsepower that cost the same or less than a new NSX. Get one if you want a mass produced car like every other HP hungry person in town.
I do not think Honda is intending to make the new NSX a high volume production car. I do not want it to roll down a regular production line like everything else. I'll be disappointed if they do.
The NSX has never been Honda's cash producer. It is their flagship vehicle. I LIKE the fact that not everybody in town has an NSX.
The Corvette is so common that it is nothing special to encounter one on the road or in the parking lot. I don't want the NSX to become a common car encountered by most people every day.
I like having a car that is different. I think many NSX owners feel the same or they would already have something else.
One important reason I purchased the NSX is because you can enjoy driving an exotic without constant repairs and or breakdowns.
The NSX will probably never be the top dog in the 1/4 mile or on top end. But it will last without breaking your bank account. If money is no object I doubt the NSX is your primary or only sports car.
I'll be happy if the new NSX can be fairly competive BUT RELIABLE.
There will always be Corvette's or Vipers with more horsepower that cost the same or less than a new NSX. Get one if you want a mass produced car like every other HP hungry person in town.
I do not think Honda is intending to make the new NSX a high volume production car. I do not want it to roll down a regular production line like everything else. I'll be disappointed if they do.
The NSX has never been Honda's cash producer. It is their flagship vehicle. I LIKE the fact that not everybody in town has an NSX.
The Corvette is so common that it is nothing special to encounter one on the road or in the parking lot. I don't want the NSX to become a common car encountered by most people every day.
I like having a car that is different. I think many NSX owners feel the same or they would already have something else.
prolego: Replace "Corvette" in your post by "Porsche 911" and you have exactly what I think and got here in Germany.
Prolego,
I agree with all the points you made, but I think they miss the bigger issue of what the NSX/HSC is all about (at least, what I think it’s all about).
It’s a symbol of Honda’s superior ability to innovate, engineer and build and an emblem of Honda’s proud racing heritage. It’s an object of desire that casts its aura over the entire product line. The HSC isn’t intended to be a direct cash producer, but can have a far-reaching impact on the company’s bottom line.
It can’t serve that function if it’s merely a reliable, competent vehicle. It has to set a new standard, just as the NSX did in 1991. In the ensuing 13 years the performance bar has been raised so high that 300 – 350 hp simply isn’t going to light any fires or win any comparos. The mere look of the HSC promises performance. To fail to deliver would be to fail.
I love the uniqueness of my NSX, the fact that I almost never see one in my area, where Corvettes and Porsches are as common as potholes. No matter how successful the HSC, I’m not worried that the streets will be flooded with them. Honda can’t produce them in that quantity, and there aren’t that many buyers for a $100,000 2-seater with limited trunk space. The HSC doesn’t need to sell in huge numbers to be a success. It just needs to repeat it’s paradigm shifting 1991 advances. Not a simple task, but, hey, this is Honda. They’ve been redefining the car and motorcycle industries from the day the first Honda rolled off the production line.
Rex
I agree with all the points you made, but I think they miss the bigger issue of what the NSX/HSC is all about (at least, what I think it’s all about).
It’s a symbol of Honda’s superior ability to innovate, engineer and build and an emblem of Honda’s proud racing heritage. It’s an object of desire that casts its aura over the entire product line. The HSC isn’t intended to be a direct cash producer, but can have a far-reaching impact on the company’s bottom line.
It can’t serve that function if it’s merely a reliable, competent vehicle. It has to set a new standard, just as the NSX did in 1991. In the ensuing 13 years the performance bar has been raised so high that 300 – 350 hp simply isn’t going to light any fires or win any comparos. The mere look of the HSC promises performance. To fail to deliver would be to fail.
I love the uniqueness of my NSX, the fact that I almost never see one in my area, where Corvettes and Porsches are as common as potholes. No matter how successful the HSC, I’m not worried that the streets will be flooded with them. Honda can’t produce them in that quantity, and there aren’t that many buyers for a $100,000 2-seater with limited trunk space. The HSC doesn’t need to sell in huge numbers to be a success. It just needs to repeat it’s paradigm shifting 1991 advances. Not a simple task, but, hey, this is Honda. They’ve been redefining the car and motorcycle industries from the day the first Honda rolled off the production line.
Rex
I agree that it should set a new standard but it doesn't mean it must match every other in horsepower and the 1/4 mile.
I would be great to see Honda achieve their performance through inovative use of technology and new materials.. A GOOD 4 wheel drive setup that gets power to the road instead of wheel spin. I enjoy a good squealing burnout as much as anyone but it does nothing to increase the cars performance.
Most car manufacturers can build a more powerful engine. The real challenge is to mate the right engine with the right chassis and have each one work with the other, not overwhelm one with the other.
I'm just concerned when so many are looking only at HP instead of the overall package. If it can run with the big boys I don't care if it is rated 100 HP. That would just makes the others look silly, having all that HP but not able to use it as effectively.
I want Honda to excell and prosper. The small guy that can give the big boys a bloody nose to keep them from becoming too smug.
I would be great to see Honda achieve their performance through inovative use of technology and new materials.. A GOOD 4 wheel drive setup that gets power to the road instead of wheel spin. I enjoy a good squealing burnout as much as anyone but it does nothing to increase the cars performance.
Most car manufacturers can build a more powerful engine. The real challenge is to mate the right engine with the right chassis and have each one work with the other, not overwhelm one with the other.
I'm just concerned when so many are looking only at HP instead of the overall package. If it can run with the big boys I don't care if it is rated 100 HP. That would just makes the others look silly, having all that HP but not able to use it as effectively.
I want Honda to excell and prosper. The small guy that can give the big boys a bloody nose to keep them from becoming too smug.
NSXers know that power alone does NOT equal performance, but a suprising number of people, even enthusiasts, think it does. People pay for power. A 300 hp 2400 lb car will be accorded lesser status by most people than a similar car at 3600 lbs with 450 hp, even though the lighter car will be more expensive to build and will far surpass the heavier car dynamically. Problem here is, are you shooting for the Porsche 996, or are you shooting for the Ferrari 360. They are different animals.prolego said:
Regarding a Honda V-6: I can't see making more than 100 hp/litre in the new engine. Honda realized they went a little too far in trading sub-5000 rpm torque for 7000+ rpm power in the S2000. Imagine the embarrassment if critics callied the next NSX "gutless around town". Another 60hp due to +300cc and iVTEC feels realistic and shouldn't sacrifice drivability, yet would push NSX performance past its current rivals (ie. surpass the 360/C5/996/M3 but fall short of the 996TT/Viper).
I am of two minds on the issue of the engine... on one hand, I honestly believe a 350hp V-6 will be very competitive. Consider how well the 290hp version fares today against 350-395 hp counterparts. On the other hand, I honestly wonder why Honda can't or won't develop a new 3.6-4.4L V-8 to bolster several models' performance and brand image similar to how Nissan has done with the VQ-series V6. The NSX would get its 400 hp (albeit with a slight increase in weight), the MDX/Pilot would get class-leading engines, the new RL and TL could compete vs. the M-B/BMW/Lexus/Infinity models. It would appear the development costs, while very large, would be well-spent to strategically position the brand for the next 10 years.
many good points brought up. The press release does not confirm that the hsc IS the new nsx, as japanese language is ambigous it fits more perfectly as, "kinda, probably, will be. But we may change our mind'
It also states the global market is the aim. When designing the first nsx, did they cater to the Japanese market only? Or thought 'gee, we better put a shitload horsepower in it or the American's won't buy it'?
It would be interesting to hear what other countries think of the current car and the new car (replacement/second generation) especially some Japanese owners (Hishi are you there?)
Benchmark racing/ bragging rights seems to be hugely popular in America, what about Japan? Europe? In Australia 'my horse power is bigger than your horsepower' attitude is prevelant also, unfortunately.
Is this at the expense of all round goodness that the NSX of yesteryear represents/represented? Is the American market the most important factor to these makers? Or is this what Americans think? (Not bashing, genuinly curious, as i havent heard of Honda reps popping around to NSX owners in Oz asking what they would like to see improved)
Lastly, the gentlemen's agreement was broken a looong time ago. Again, in Japan as im finding a lot, as long as its written down on paper, the reality doesnt matter much. As long as its written on the spec sheet '280ps' its all good. Rx7, WRX, Skyline have long been quoting these..... ahem 'official' numbers.
It also states the global market is the aim. When designing the first nsx, did they cater to the Japanese market only? Or thought 'gee, we better put a shitload horsepower in it or the American's won't buy it'?
It would be interesting to hear what other countries think of the current car and the new car (replacement/second generation) especially some Japanese owners (Hishi are you there?)
Benchmark racing/ bragging rights seems to be hugely popular in America, what about Japan? Europe? In Australia 'my horse power is bigger than your horsepower' attitude is prevelant also, unfortunately.
Is this at the expense of all round goodness that the NSX of yesteryear represents/represented? Is the American market the most important factor to these makers? Or is this what Americans think? (Not bashing, genuinly curious, as i havent heard of Honda reps popping around to NSX owners in Oz asking what they would like to see improved)
Lastly, the gentlemen's agreement was broken a looong time ago. Again, in Japan as im finding a lot, as long as its written down on paper, the reality doesnt matter much. As long as its written on the spec sheet '280ps' its all good. Rx7, WRX, Skyline have long been quoting these..... ahem 'official' numbers.
Honda has always been a very "green" company and that is why I don't think we'll ever see huge hp numbers out of any of it's
engines. This whole hp war reminds me alot of the late 60's/ early 70's. Makes me wonder if NSX drivers will be laughing at Ferrari and Viper owners when the next energy crisis hits. Squeeze out another 60 hp and trim another 200 lbs. of fat, keep the price neutral and you've got a repeat customer. Also, offer us a Type-R with lighter wheels, less noise insulation, lighter seats, etc., etc.
engines. This whole hp war reminds me alot of the late 60's/ early 70's. Makes me wonder if NSX drivers will be laughing at Ferrari and Viper owners when the next energy crisis hits. Squeeze out another 60 hp and trim another 200 lbs. of fat, keep the price neutral and you've got a repeat customer. Also, offer us a Type-R with lighter wheels, less noise insulation, lighter seats, etc., etc.
spookyp said:
This is exactly my point too. Very well written!
The HP wars will end, and people will realize that the bench racers are ignorant fools. Soon you have cars with so much power, you'll be 100% dependant on anti spin, anti everything, just to be able to drive it. All the power can't be used. Then all you have left is a heavy car with lot's of power on paper. Just give us HP we can use and I'm happy.
Here is something to think about
Why did they stop producing the AC Cobra??
HP wars has been fought before. Learn from it.
nsx1 said:I'm sure it was just a typo.
The 1990 NSX had a 3.0L engine. In 1997 the engine was increased to 3.2L for manual transmission vehicles. The automatic transmission still has the 3.0L engine.
I think everyone's pretty much in agreement here. We don't care about horsepower per se, what we care about is performance. Unfortunately, it's damn hard to meet today's performance standards without more horsepower.
Maybe the argument is really about what we think Honda's mission is with the HSC. Is it to raise the bar for super cars as they did with the NSX in '91, forcing all manufacturers back to the drawing boards to equal the NSX's performance, innovation, refinement and build quality? Or is it just to add a well-engineered, striking looking, competent performing, probably very expensive car to the line? I don't see Honda setting their sights for their flagship so low. And I can't see a business case for such an underachiever unless the price is less than $60,000.
Maybe the argument is really about what we think Honda's mission is with the HSC. Is it to raise the bar for super cars as they did with the NSX in '91, forcing all manufacturers back to the drawing boards to equal the NSX's performance, innovation, refinement and build quality? Or is it just to add a well-engineered, striking looking, competent performing, probably very expensive car to the line? I don't see Honda setting their sights for their flagship so low. And I can't see a business case for such an underachiever unless the price is less than $60,000.
Jimbo said:
Honda's propensity to kill off model names is Legendary.
Well here goes my thoughts...
I think Honda is trying to keep everyone in thinking that the so called next gen NSX will have 300hp because no one in the Japanese market is readily going to announce crossing that 300hp limit. We have all heard about that stupid hand shake deal, and if you think about it they might be trying to delay crossing it to see if someone else may go first.
I agree that if they don't increase the hp it will not sell anywhere near what they want it to at a higher pricetag then the Z06. I would love to see them go the supercharger or turbo route as I have a single turbo set-up (from Gerry Johnson) with 500rwhp. Now I don't expect anywhere near that output but it definitely needs to be at least 400hp at the crank to be competitive in the marketplace. And I really hope they dont go with this hybrid technology. Do you think it could be still called an exotic supercar with "hybrid technology?" I am not sure.
I just hope they are trying to conceal anything they are trying to do and surprise us all, but we will just have to wait and see.
Just do what I do...everynight before we goto bed we all say a prayer for more horsepower in the next NSX and maybe it will happen
Thanx,
Don
1994 Formula Red Single Turbo NSX
I think Honda is trying to keep everyone in thinking that the so called next gen NSX will have 300hp because no one in the Japanese market is readily going to announce crossing that 300hp limit. We have all heard about that stupid hand shake deal, and if you think about it they might be trying to delay crossing it to see if someone else may go first.
I agree that if they don't increase the hp it will not sell anywhere near what they want it to at a higher pricetag then the Z06. I would love to see them go the supercharger or turbo route as I have a single turbo set-up (from Gerry Johnson) with 500rwhp.
Now I don't expect anywhere near that output but it definitely needs to be at least 400hp at the crank to be competitive in the marketplace. And I really hope they dont go with this hybrid technology. Do you think it could be still called an exotic supercar with "hybrid technology?" I am not sure.I just hope they are trying to conceal anything they are trying to do and surprise us all, but we will just have to wait and see.
Just do what I do...everynight before we goto bed we all say a prayer for more horsepower in the next NSX and maybe it will happen
Thanx,
Don
1994 Formula Red Single Turbo NSX
Honda's NSX was designed to compete with the NA Porsche in 1989. At that time the NSX was competitive, without the MTCE issues Porsche carries. Life evolves and today the NSX is way under-powered! It's competition is the new Porsche GT-3 and the Honda won't even see its tail lights on a road course! Now the GT-3 is rated just under 400 hp. and is competitive for 2004. Next year, 500 HP. will be the norm for high end sports cars. Honda truly needs a 4 liter V-8 or maybe the Formula 1 V-10 de tuned and stroked to 4 liters. Porsche has to go to twin turbo's in order to compete with the Z06 & Viper today! They spent 25 years perfecting them! Does Honda want to go down that path? It takes Horse-Power at tracks like Road Atlanta and VIR. Honda has to meet the competition, if they want to sell the NSX as a preminium Sports Car! Let's see how serious Honda is about staying in this market! Currently, they are NOT selling enougth new NSX's to be worth while!Trumper's points are well-taken. Unfortunately,
Honda apparently has no interest in sports-car racing, at least
not in the U.S. Now that Realtime Racing has abandoned the NSX,
there is virtually no Honda presence in GT cars. Is the HSC (or next gen NSX) going to be raced in the JGTC?, probably. Is it going to be raced in the U.S.?, I really doubt it (except for privateers). A shame really, because with more hp (as in the JGTC), the NSX is truly competitive. Racing is expensive and Honda is apparently going to focus on just the IRL and not sportscar racing here in the U.S.
Honda apparently has no interest in sports-car racing, at least
not in the U.S. Now that Realtime Racing has abandoned the NSX,
there is virtually no Honda presence in GT cars. Is the HSC (or next gen NSX) going to be raced in the JGTC?, probably. Is it going to be raced in the U.S.?, I really doubt it (except for privateers). A shame really, because with more hp (as in the JGTC), the NSX is truly competitive. Racing is expensive and Honda is apparently going to focus on just the IRL and not sportscar racing here in the U.S.
Power vs. Weight
Hi gang,
You guys kill me. Here I am gone for a year or so and the next generation NSX gets announced and you guys are still finding reasons to complain because it doesn't have 500hp?! Oh well.
I thought I would point out one seemingly obvious fact and that is if Honda is successful in putting the next gen NSX wannabe on a diet, then the 300hp-350hp would be more than enough. Keep in mind that weight reduction benefit is not linear, so you get more than a 1:1 benefit in most cases depending on where the weight savings comes from. Lighter body parts are just the start. But, imagine that you take the current 3200 lb monster and reduce the weight by just 23%, you have essentially taken a 350 hp motor and made it look like it produces 450 hp. Everything benefits from the weight savings from handling to zero-60 times and even gas mileage.
The other ironic thing about some of the comments so far is that you guys are heck bent on discounting the V6, even as far back as 1991. Granted, you can get a $30,000 car with a 350hp V8, but it is still a PONTIAC GTO! Heck, buy two. Clearly, even back in 1991, the V6 was light, compact and offered the best overall neutral handling and weight balance options... but then again, most of you knew that already.
One of the nice things about being able to afford to drive just about anything that I want is that you get a lot of "first hand" experience with lots of cars. I am now on car #28 and my 17th in 10 years. So, what am I looking to buy next... well, I have to say that I miss my NSX. Anyone got a good 1997 Black/Black?
Well, thanks gang. Time to poke around the site and see what I missed. G-man out!
Hi gang,
You guys kill me. Here I am gone for a year or so and the next generation NSX gets announced and you guys are still finding reasons to complain because it doesn't have 500hp?! Oh well.
I thought I would point out one seemingly obvious fact and that is if Honda is successful in putting the next gen NSX wannabe on a diet, then the 300hp-350hp would be more than enough. Keep in mind that weight reduction benefit is not linear, so you get more than a 1:1 benefit in most cases depending on where the weight savings comes from. Lighter body parts are just the start. But, imagine that you take the current 3200 lb monster and reduce the weight by just 23%, you have essentially taken a 350 hp motor and made it look like it produces 450 hp. Everything benefits from the weight savings from handling to zero-60 times and even gas mileage.
The other ironic thing about some of the comments so far is that you guys are heck bent on discounting the V6, even as far back as 1991. Granted, you can get a $30,000 car with a 350hp V8, but it is still a PONTIAC GTO!
Heck, buy two. Clearly, even back in 1991, the V6 was light, compact and offered the best overall neutral handling and weight balance options... but then again, most of you knew that already. One of the nice things about being able to afford to drive just about anything that I want is that you get a lot of "first hand" experience with lots of cars. I am now on car #28 and my 17th in 10 years. So, what am I looking to buy next... well, I have to say that I miss my NSX. Anyone got a good 1997 Black/Black?
Well, thanks gang. Time to poke around the site and see what I missed.
G-man out!Similar threads
