Oil leak in the gulf

[swerve2007]

Touche.

I swear the holier than thou types screaming about the evil big oil. THEY are big oil, YOU are big oil, I am big oil. We use slightly less than half a barrel of oil for gasoline and the rest goes to just about everything else in the world that we use on a daily basis.
So yeah lets stop drilling and figure out a way to make all the evil oil based products out of rabbit crap.

read my post above and look into history- oil was found to be a cheap SUBSTITUTE- most of everything can be made of other polymers (rabbit crap does not apply).
if you would like to insult me then DO grow some balls and do it, don't hide behind a cliche.

 

[Biscuit]

just making sure you are still awake, lol.


biscuit, do not make the mistake that i don't think oil is important- it is even more important how we get it, and obviously ignoring the issues (time and time again) is not the way to go. if that is 'holy' then you should pray to that idea daily. this is not about ABSENCE of oil drilling but about the lack of transparency and professional ignorance as this entire BP circus shows.
fyi, everything you listed CAN be made of other substances and in the past most of them were. now they are made of oil as it is convenient.

The very fact that bp has to drill a mile down to get the oil is directly connected with liberal enviormentalists insisting no shallow water drilling or drilling on land in anwar. People find it real easy to demonize big oil when it's those very people who rely on it so heavly. You want to make these accidents less frequent, then stop tying the hands of the drillers with arbritrary rules with no basis in fact.
Oh and I'd be curious to know what others raw materiels other than oil that you could make all these other goods from.

 

[swerve2007]

The very fact that bp has to drill a mile down to get the oil is directly connected with liberal enviormentalists insisting no shallow water drilling or drilling on land in anwar. People find it real easy to demonize big oil when it's those very people who rely on it so heavly. You want to make these accidents less frequent, then stop tying the hands of the drillers with arbritrary rules with no basis in fact.
Oh and I'd be curious to know what others raw materiels other than oil that you could make all these other goods from.

read up on it- vegetable oils have similar polymer strains. fyi, even internal combustion engine was originally designed to run on peanut oil.

secondly- BP drilled there because there is oil, no because they were forced to. some very smart people developed a process so it can be done safely and profitably so for some mid-level managment to be able to make decisions that were made there is criminal- THATS what regulations are for but obviously it is 'inconvenient' to follow any regulations.

your logic that all these accidents are 'cost of doing business' is misguided. there is nothing in this mess that was not preventable- it is obvious we need oil and we need to drill anywhere we can but it can't be done in current culture where the industry loves to lobby, bypass regulations and safery devices 'in case they work as intended and ruin a workday'.

 

[Biscuit]

read up on it- vegetable oils have similar polymer strains. fyi, even internal combustion engine was originally designed to run on peanut oil.

secondly- BP drilled there because there is oil, no because they were forced to. some very smart people developed a process so it can be done safely and profitably so for some mid-level managment to be able to make decisions that were made there is criminal- THATS what regulations are for but obviously it is 'inconvenient' to follow any regulations.

your logic that all these accidents are 'cost of doing business' is misguided. there is nothing in this mess that was not preventable- it is obvious we need oil and we need to drill anywhere we can but it can't be done in current culture where the industry loves to lobby, bypass regulations and safery devices 'in case they work as intended and ruin a workday'.

You are so quite obviously the expert concerning all things oil related here therefore my highly undeveloped brain and I are gonna go sit quietly in the corner on my plastic chair made of veggies and hemp.

You either have little or misguided knowledge of this subject and I frankly don't have the time nor interest in countering your argument with facts.

 

[TURBO2GO]

So then Biscuit by your logic, it matters not how you come by a product, right? It doesn't matter whether we ignore safety regulations, lie, cheat, influence congress, buy politicians, lie before an accident, during an accident, after an accident, get oil workers killed, etc, so long as we get that oil.

The second anyone like swerve cries foul, and asks for doing business in a just, clean, regulated way, everyone starts screaming about the fact that he has a plastic lawnchair and drives a car?

All Swerve has been talking about is that business be done in as responsible of a way as possible. Is that asking for a lot? Is it asking a lot that we don't dump, pollute, kill unncessarily, and destroy to get some product? This is what he has been saying and I agree with him completely. Do you realize BP's safety record? their ignoring of the extremely loose regulations that there are?

We as the public need to always be aware of corporate power and corporate influence because their concern is nothing but MONEY. Money has no regard for human life, for employees, for the environment, for nothing except profit.

It is shocking to me how what swerve speaks of protects people like YOU, but you tend to take the corporate side. Oil companies lobby, they buy deregulation, they save a few more pennies, a preventable accident happens, and millions of gallons of oil wind up in the fish you eat, in the water you drink and on the beaches you visit and you say it is OK, because we use plastic materials or put gas in our car.

 

[SilverStone05]

So then Biscuit by your logic, it matters not how you come by a product, right? It doesn't matter whether we ignore safety regulations, lie, cheat, influence congress, buy politicians, lie before an accident, during an accident, after an accident, get oil workers killed, etc, so long as we get that oil.

The second anyone like swerve cries foul, and asks for doing business in a just, clean, regulated way, everyone starts screaming about the fact that he has a plastic lawnchair and drives a car?

All Swerve has been talking about is that business be done in as responsible of a way as possible. Is that asking for a lot? Is it asking a lot that we don't dump, pollute, kill unncessarily, and destroy to get some product? This is what he has been saying and I agree with him completely. Do you realize BP's safety record? their ignoring of the extremely loose regulations that there are?

We as the public need to always be aware of corporate power and corporate influence because their concern is nothing but MONEY. Money has no regard for human life, for employees, for the environment, for nothing except profit.

It is shocking to me how what swerve speaks of protects people like YOU, but you tend to take the corporate side. Oil companies lobby, they buy deregulation, they save a few more pennies, a preventable accident happens, and millions of gallons of oil wind up in the fish you eat, in the water you drink and on the beaches you visit and you say it is OK, because we use plastic materials or put gas in our car.

Turbo - the public needs to be more wary of government power and government influence because as we've seen, they are not accountable to anyone except for themselves and the interests that they serve. And- unlike corporate America, Congress writes the laws and passes them with or without lobbying.

You might think that Congress is accountable to its constituents, but they aren't. The average number of voters for a presidential election is about 50%. For Senate/Rep elections its about 35%. And look, you still have areas that elect the likes of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi.

I'd rather leave it to the private sector to accept responsibility for their wrongdoings and change their ways- because every private misstep is brought to light, and due to public ire...companies can actually be held accountable for their actions....as seen with the financials and even more recently, BP.

If they screw up....their customers stop buying their products, and they suffer or fail.

We've seen it - companies cutting salaries, issuing recalls, making public apologies, changing their ways when their missteps come to light.

Goverment? Not so much. Pay raises each year, fat pensions and free healthcare. And friends who keep the Justice Department off their back. (Paging Franklin Raines and his cronies) Where is the accountability?

It's so ironic. The same people who pushed shaky loans that couldn't be paid back are now outlawing those kinds of loans in the new Financial Reform bill.

Brilliant.

 

[TURBO2GO]

So you want for-profit money driven corporations to self-regulate? Don't you see that regulation is against their self interest?
I don't get your logic. You complain about the government, but offer me an alternative governing body to reign in big corporations.

It's funny, I went to a BP gas station yesterday because I was on fumes, and I was surprised to see them quite busy. I had to wait for a pump. So I am not sure about your theory... I am not sure people understand the scope and danger of this mess. We are permanently now wiping out entire eco systems in the gulf. Thousands of creatures from Dolphins to birds to whales are trying to breathe and pulling oil into their lungs. They are dying. No one knows what the end result of this will be. This oil is still pouring into the ocean. Do you know what BP has done? They are filling youtube and facebook with ads. They put ads on TV. Just google gulf oil spill and see what you get. How is this responsibility? The 20 billion they were forced to put into escrow for cleanup was put there by the government.

Public ire? What about all the animals that die? can they speak? What about the ocean? the beach? the drinking water? how to they show their ire? what about the people that have no voice? The poor? They can't afford to buy ads on youtube. How do you want public ire to regulate a multi-billion dollar company when the public has an attention span of around 5 minutes. Lindsay Lohan crying in court immediately takes over. Who will get your health and my health back once the remnants of toxic oil has entered our water, our food chain, your body and my body? I don't think it will be self-regulation or public ire...

 

[swerve2007]

You are so quite obviously the expert concerning all things oil related here therefore my highly undeveloped brain and I are gonna go sit quietly in the corner on my plastic chair made of veggies and hemp.

You either have little or misguided knowledge of this subject and I frankly don't have the time nor interest in countering your argument with facts.

it sure is easy to oversimplify, isn't it. i am not quoting any ground-breaking knowledge here, just common information that anyone learns in chemistry class in response to your elaborate post meant to belittle and label me- don't be pissed at me, look it up if you have doubts, i don't care. notice i did not in any way match the tone of your message, although i did want to so if you want to voluntarily 'cop an attitude' then be my guest.

edit: i have absolutely no problem being the 'liberal asshole' here if that means that even one person looks at posts like these and thinks a bit- even if they do not agree, i am not an 'oracle' and never claimed to be. i love how anyone with common sense and a audacity to counter the status quo immidiately gets labeled, like those 'titles' means anything to anyone with a bit of integrity- trust me, i do not want to be a member of your 'club'.

 

[swerve2007]

Turbo - the public needs to be more wary of government power and government influence because as we've seen, they are not accountable to anyone except for themselves and the interests that they serve. And- unlike corporate America, Congress writes the laws and passes them with or without lobbying.

You might think that Congress is accountable to its constituents, but they aren't. The average number of voters for a presidential election is about 50%. For Senate/Rep elections its about 35%. And look, you still have areas that elect the likes of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi.

I'd rather leave it to the private sector to accept responsibility for their wrongdoings and change their ways- because every private misstep is brought to light, and due to public ire...companies can actually be held accountable for their actions....as seen with the financials and even more recently, BP.

If they screw up....their customers stop buying their products, and they suffer or fail.

We've seen it - companies cutting salaries, issuing recalls, making public apologies, changing their ways when their missteps come to light.

Goverment? Not so much. Pay raises each year, fat pensions and free healthcare. And friends who keep the Justice Department off their back. (Paging Franklin Raines and his cronies) Where is the accountability?

It's so ironic. The same people who pushed shaky loans that couldn't be paid back are now outlawing those kinds of loans in the new Financial Reform bill.

Brilliant.

everyone is completely aware of shortcomings of government- you are right and nobody will argue that case with you. unfortunately that leaves the issue in 'our hands', people who supposed to follow the regulations (that were set up to protect US against such 'accidents') out of our own sense of integrity, not because it gets pounded into our heads by some beaurocrat. unfortunately we all know that anything getting in a way of profit is 'taboo' here so frankly thats how you end up with screwed-up enforcement when regulations are not adhered to voluntarily. if that means that now i get flamed for transposing my (quote) 'personal sense of professional ethics' maybe we should all really think what that means, and if you do think it deserves to be chastised then don't blame anyone else if you find crap in your coffee, chemical spill in your water and lead in your kid's toy. in my opinion profeteering replaced ethics in our society and we are seeing the results everywhere.
i am not anti 'free market' and profit- profit is good but it has to be achieved in healthy and reasonable matter, not with an attitude that 'permits' someone to rape and pillage to amass wealth and later on to donate some money to a public library to sooth their conscience. even if the public catches onto their 'scheme' and, like you advocate, punishes them by not buying their product, it may already be way too late in terms of damage to environment or society.

 

[SilverStone05]

So you want for-profit money driven corporations to self-regulate? Don't you see that regulation is against their self interest?
I don't get your logic. You complain about the government, but offer me an alternative governing body to reign in big corporations....

Turbo- profit driven corporations already self-regulate. They have to in this information driven society we live in. The problem is that you get one....just one greedy, lazy or just plain stupid person to mess things up for everyone. That's all it takes to screw things up. Case and point: BP.

Furthermore:

I'm not trying to offer a concrete solution, I'm telling all the naysayers to step back off their high horses. BP provides jobs and products that we all need and use on a daily basis.

I'm also saying that the government or any of their bureacrats should NOT be offering any type of regulation. These guys are politicians, not rocket scientists, physicists or business mavens. They are sloppily dressed, self serving leeches that should stay as far away from regulation as humanly possible.

It's funny, I went to a BP gas station yesterday because I was on fumes, and I was surprised to see them quite busy. I had to wait for a pump. So I am not sure about your theory...

My theory and the premise of all my posts is proved correct. People will whine, moan, complain and shake their fist at BP. But will go and purchase fuel at their station. That is just simply beyond me. Take a stand dammit, if you believe so ardently in your cause.

The only way we can bring pain and force change upon an organization is for consumers to vote with their wallets. Reduce demand and corporations WILL listen.

But no one wants to go the hard way. No, they'd rather piss and moan on a public forum about their personal ethics, all the while perpetuating the same shit they claim to hate.....but which they cause and agree with everytime they fill up at the pump.

A lot of people talk a big game, but how many give up their electricity for a fireplace, running water for a well, their NSX for a bicycle, their supermarket for a farm, their mortgage for the struggle of saving and their wireless phone for smoke signals? None.

 

[swerve2007]

My theory and the premise of all my posts is proved correct. People will whine, moan, complain and shake their fist at BP. But will go and purchase fuel at their station. That is just simply beyond me. Take a stand dammit, if you believe so ardently in your cause.

in my opinion we should not try to convince ourselves that the issue is only limited to BP- yes, it is BP that 'got caught with their pants down' and yes, we can all boycott BP but in reality the attitude is prevalent throughout the industry and we cannot boycot every gas station- we all need gas no matter what. we have to look at it as a 'monopoly' and deal with it accordingly, through regulation because as you see, they will not do the 'right thing' by themselves.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Turbo- profit driven corporations already self-regulate. They have to in this information driven society we live in.

You know what? I am a small mechanic shop, I like to do cheap oil changes, and dump the oil down the sink in my shop. Is that cool with you? do you think being "information driven" will catch up with me? How about if I am a gas station, my tank is rusted and leaking gasoline into the ground? No regulations means no one really checks. Is that "information" going to catch up with me? How long will that take? I like to produce cheap food, I add a little anti-freeze to it to make it sweeter. I'll sell the stuff for years, then when I get caught, all is fine because I didn't break any laws. There was no regulation. So people stopped buying from my brand because they found out. Meanwhile I have made millions.

Information is a pretty fragile thing. What was the "information" BP provided us about the amount of oil being spilt at first? about 5% of the current estimate.

If you think we can take away the little regulations there are, let business do what it wants, and everything will be just fine because we are an "information driven" society, I think you are misguided.

 

[Bigwave]

The wonderful thing about producing oil and gas is that there is always a market for it - one doesn't have to spend a single dime marketing the product. So to boycott any oil & gas company is useless, because they just sell their product to the open market. However, since almost all gas stations are franchises, it does hurt the "little people."

 

[SilverStone05]

You know what? I am a small mechanic shop, I like to do cheap oil changes, and dump the oil down the sink in my shop. Is that cool with you? do you think being "information driven" will catch up with me?

The assumption is that we are all speaking in the scope of "big business".
We're all educated enough to know that people don't pay much attention to the little guy. The scorn is saved for the "big" or the "rich', or any other positive adjective you can use to describe a successful venture. These companies self regulate.

If you think we can take away the little regulations there are, let business do what it wants, and everything will be just fine because we are an "information driven" society, I think you are misguided.

Regarding misguided...villified companies will never learn if we continue to purchase their products.

 

[Dtrigg]

My theory and the premise of all my posts is proved correct. People will whine, moan, complain and shake their fist at BP. But will go and purchase fuel at their station. That is just simply beyond me. Take a stand dammit, if you believe so ardently in your cause.

Those BP stations are not owned by BP. They are owned by small business groups or individuals.

 

[SilverStone05]

Those BP stations are not owned by BP. They are owned by small business groups or individuals.

So are you saying its ok to boycott and sabotage "big business" but not "small business"?



Either way-

Mr. Doug, don't fool yourself into thinking that BP doesn't have a vested interest in these franchised/independently owned fuel stations.

These franchises have to be purchased, I think the going rate is 30-40K. In addition, BP offers marketing support and other forms of assistance as these fuel stations pay a monthly royalty.

 

[Dtrigg]

Mr. Doug, don't fool yourself into thinking that BP doesn't have a vested interest in these franchised/independently owned fuel stations.

These franchises have to be purchased, I think the going rate is 30-40K. In addition, BP offers marketing support and other forms of assistance as these fuel stations pay a monthly royalty.

I appreciate what you're saying. I guess I don't think it's fair to punish some independent business person and their employees for an oil spill in which they played no part. Just my opinion.

 

[SilverStone05]

I appreciate what you're saying. I guess I don't think it's fair to punish some independent business person and their employees for an oil spill in which they played no part. Just my opinion.

Played no part in?

Doug, we are ALL responsible for this. BP, its business partners, and consumers. :frown:

 

[Ko-nsx]

Played no part in?

Doug, we are ALL responsible for this. BP, its business partners, and consumers. :frown:

Uh not me, i was in Houston for a seminar on power management.:biggrin:

 

[swerve2007]

Played no part in?

Doug, we are ALL responsible for this. BP, its business partners, and consumers. :frown:

i didn't agree to disconnecting safety devices, ignoring concerns of techs on site and lobbying to kill regulations.
just because we PAY for the product it does not give them a 'carte blanche' to get it any way they please.
i understand the point you are making but please see what we are saying- there is a way to get this done cleanly and 'right'- is it more 'inconvenient'? sure, but i would gladly pay few cents more for gas in exchange for more security. accidents will always happen, unfortunately most of these 'incidents' are not accidents but mis-managment and ignorance.

 

[TURBO2GO]

The assumption is that we are all speaking in the scope of "big business".
We're all educated enough to know that people don't pay much attention to the little guy. The scorn is saved for the "big" or the "rich', or any other positive adjective you can use to describe a successful venture. These companies self regulate. .

Big companies have even more power to hide, mislead, steal, pollute, and get away with it. I just disagree with you completely on this "self regulation" thing. It is a complete oxymoron if you ask me. We already saw what the lack of regulation did in the banking industry. I am all for free enterprise but as swerve is pointing out, RESPONSIBLE free enterprise. If the choice is between under regulation or over regulation, I will take the latter. Let the corporate world whine and cry. They do it all the time and yet no matter what at the end of the year make TONS of profit. They just want more. You are talking to a monster of greed. Any regulation for them is too much. Any extra expense is too much.

 

[yojack1]

Uh not me, i was in Houston for a seminar on power management.:biggrin:

KO, I didn't know that you were at that meeting too! :wink:

Jack

 

[Ko-nsx]

I just got back on the rig today, looks like the cap is doing a good of temporary containment. China has big problem on their hands. I wonder what the coverage of the spill will be? I wonder what our spill coverage looked like over there?

 

[TURBO2GO]

There's another spill?!!!!!

 

[yojack1]

There's another spill?!!!!!

They say it's twice as big!

Jack