Opinions needed, what would you do?

[paulviriyapan]

Okay folks, I have a situation that I want some opinions on. Basically, if you were me what would you do? I’ll try and explain the situation as truthfully as possible and will leave out names.

These are the pertinent facts: about a year and a half ago I had my engine rebuilt at a shop in Northern California. My insurance company paid about $9,000 and I chipped in $3,000 myself for extra work. About 6 months after the rebuild was done, I noticed that the car was using up coolant. I took it to a very reputable local NSX mechanic who checked out the car and found out that it was using coolant. We poured coolant into the car, and it was disappearing. The car was checked for external leaks, and there none. Furthermore, we found coolant in the oil (under the oil cap looked like milkshake). When I took the car back to the mechanic who rebuilt the motor (keep in mind I have to pay $400 to tow the car to his shop some 300 miles away from where I live), he said basically that I was making things up and the car wasn’t using coolant.

About 2 months ago, I was driving around and the car stalled on the road. I had it towed to my local mechanic, who found that one of the terminals on the battery had come loose. He test drove and checked out the car (specifically the oil level), and there were no problems. There was no other work done on the car other than the battery terminals. The car was left out that night so that I could come after the shop closed and pick it up. As I was driving the car home, during moderate traffic (i.e. I wasn’t pushing it because I could barely drive the speed limit), I saw the oil pressure gauge drop to zero and the oil pressure light went on. When that happened, I shut off the motor and let the car coast to the side of the road where I got it towed. The car had spun a main bearing in the number 2 cylinder.

I called my insurance company and they told me I had to give the guy who fixed the engine a chance to repair it, and the guy who fixed it told me to bring it up so he could take a look at it. My insurance company also told me that they would send someone out there to see what had happened. Once again, this time I had to pay $450 to tow the car up there and had to wait to find a company that could tow a completely inoperable car. (Most car transport companies will not tow an inoperable car). He looked at it and told me that it was my fault for not having oil in the car or driving the car without letting the engine warm up.

This mechanic also said that he would need a $3,000 deposit to take a look at it or that he would charge me $25 a day for storage. Well the problem is, I couldn’t move the car because a) I had to wait for the insurance guy to look at the car and b) I was in a tough spot because I have to find a tow company able to tow an inoperable car and wait for their next run up to Northern California to pick up the car. Now, this mechanic who has the car never mentioned this ‘storage fee’ before I took the car up, and if he had, I wouldn’t have taken the car up there to begin with. He also knew that the car has to be towed because it is inoperable and that I am 300 miles away.

So now I just want to take my car elsewhere to have the engine taken out, disassembled, and examined by my insurance guy. I suspect, among other things that could have gone wrong, that the cylinder sleeves I had installed weren’t right which allowed coolant to go in the engine and eventually developed into a spun bearing. Problem is, I have tried to make arrangements to have the car towed out of the shop but he refuses to let the car leave the shop until I pay up $525 for storage fees. I am at my wits end because, at this point, I JUST WANT TO GET MY CAR OUT OF THAT SHOP. I can’t really afford the tow fees back home and the storage fees at this time, and every day that the car is sitting there, I am being charged more money. Anyone have any ideas what to do?

Any help appreciated.

 

[NsXMas]

damn that sucks. hire a lawyer and sue the mechanic. It appears you have a very good documented history with the car. Some people won't take responsibility.

 

[loNfastNSX]

Sorry to hear about your situation. :frown:

That really sucks. I know how it is to deal with a shit head mechanic. Why not tell us his name and the name of his shop? Is he the owner of the shop? If so then I would be advertizing the hell out of this situation. Im sure he would rather drop the $525 than risk losing income due to a bad reputation. Also you would be doing the NSX community a favor by exposing this guy. I know I'd be pissed if I took my car to a guy that ruined another members car and I didn't know about it. I mean, why protect him and his reputation when he obviously has no respect for you or your car?

Hope it all works out for you.

 

[queenlives]

Okay folks, I have a situation that I want some opinions on. Basically, if you were me what would you do? Anyone have any ideas what to do? Any help appreciated.

sure, "fly the plane".

when i took my first flying lesson, as we were taking off (i "had the aircraft"), @~ 500' my instructor opened his door fairly wide. i yelled at him "what are you doing?" he yelled back, "what are you going to do?" i yelled back "i'm gonna fly the plane, shut the door". (i did/he did)

so, fly the plane. get your car back. then work through the rest of it in a methodical manner; use common sense, insurance and the legal system as needed.

as for posting the mechanic's name, i've found that most agreements are handled best in private; each time i've violated that (common sense) approach, it's bitten me in the ass.

good luck.

 

[Dave Hardy]

Get your car back. At some point he can use a mechanics lien to take posetion of it as abandoned, and resell it. Get the car out of there. If you don't think the storage fees are justified, sue him later.

On another note, if you noticed a problem, and continued to drive it for another 16 months, then what might very well have been his problem became yours. Sorry, but that's the way it works. I wouldn't think that anybody would expect him to be accountable for it if you continued to drive it when you knew there was a problem.

Either find a used engine, or better yet, buy a decent set of tools, an engine hoist, a FSM, and start learning how to turn your own wrenches.

 

[Osiris_x11]

Pay... Get the car... Dispute the amount w/ the Credit Card Company.

hmmm... First off, very unfortunate- reading the story of what has unfolded thus far just goes to show that sometimes you can't get a break at all! :frown:

As everyone has already mentioned, first & foremost: get your NSX back A.S.A.P.! I personally would charge the cost of his "inspection" and daily storage fee amount (in order to release the NSX) to my credit card & then ask the credit card issuer to contest/dispute the cost, as you weren't informed of the daily storage fee. That's one way of playing hardball within the system.

In NorCali, there is Gerry Johnson as well. I'm not suggesting you go the FI turbo route w/ your NSX, but you can get insights & perhaps even a top-end rebuild from him w/ some NA mods (heads, cams, springs, sleeves, re-bore, injectors) for relatively the same cost as what the rebuild to OEM specs' would cost. As Dave Hardy also suggested, looking into acquiring another motor maybe a worthwhile option. There is nsxrm in the Pacific Northwest who deals w/ wrecking/rebuilding NSX'es and he might have some parts or even motors. I'd personally pursue the NSX-R motor for sale by ProCar :wink:

*Often the mechanic/tech. doesn't own the garage where he works at & therefore has to pay for car-storage to the owner. I had to get some body-work done on my Lexus many years ago, and when I went to pickup the car after the work was complete- the mechanic informed me that I owed $2-300 more for 'storage fees' that the garage owner was due. All I can say is alot of these individuals are no better than thugs in overalls...

 

[fifthearth]

Sorry to hear about your situation..... your mechanic sounds very evil.

Is your car an Auto or 5 speed ?
Coolant in the oil.... sounds like it can be a cracked block, cylinder head, or head gasket... or all of the above. Do you also see oil in your radiator or coolant tank ?

 

[MCM]

Why did your ins co. pay 9k for the rebuild?
Just being nosey...............

 

[nsx-tech]

not all mechanics are evil or out to screw people. My spin on this is after one year the warrenty on the labour would be gone. Generaly if a mechanic makes a mistake on an engine job it doesn't last long. id you check this guy out before you took your car there or was he the cheapest? How do you get an insurance company to rebuild your engine?

 

[4AU4LIFE]

Was your car boosted and then required a rebuild?

 

[Bobolinski]

Call one of those help groups I see like 7 on your side. T. Vakar. Let it make the 6pm news and he might straighten up. Call a TV station in his area so it will be on his local TV broadcast not yours.Then call the BBB in his area..they may have a suggestion. God knows what this guy could be doing to your car.I hate puss bags. Who referred you to this guy 300 miles away...see if they have some pull here.When this is all settled let us know who this is so we can avoid this shop.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

I would say that it seems clear given his reaction that the mechanic does not wish to have anything to do with the vehicle, let alone performing a good faith investigation of the possibility of a faulty build from 16 months prior being at issue. As others have suggested, document absolutely everything in writing/with pics/whatever you need to do, keep all parties on your side of the fence in the loop, and just get the written estimate if possible... and then immediately get it out of there one way or the other as it sure doesn't sound like it is doing much good sitting there for anyone at this time.

So far as the storage fees- ultimately to me it does not sound like there ever was a signed/written contract, repair authorization, storage contract, etc... per your story. Nor would they likely be able to secure a mechanics lien given the circumstances you described as the circumstances wouldn't meet any of the submission requirements established by the state (30 days, etc...)

Thus, it would fall under a civil matter that can be resolved later if they so choose to pursue it in small claims/district court (which they won't). During the interim, just show up with a flat bed and pick it up. The property (vehicle) has a registered owner, so if they so choose as to not release it when you arrive, pickup the phone and do whatever you need to do as they do not have the legal authority to detain or impound it.

http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/StdPage.asp?Body=/GenInfo/Publications/Auto_Repair_Guide-Jan_2004.htm

 

[nicholas421]

report it stolen then collect on insurance. when the guy tries to put a mechanics lean on it later... whamo.... hopefully he'll get arrestest for grand theft. ask for this thread to be deleted. deny ever dropping off the car.

:biggrin: just kidding.









... or am I?

 

[W]

Pay the storage fees and have your car towed to another shop. Keep all receipts. Is there a warrantee on the prior motor work? How many miles on the rebuilt motor?

 

[D'Ecosse]

There's only one side of the story here & raises more questions than answers IMO

Has it continued to leak coolant since that initial reported experience a year ago?
If you were convinced it was leaking coolant internally a year ago, why did you subsequently ignore it?
Who does your oil changes - have they reported any coolant in the oil during drain?
Who determined the # 2 spun bearing diagnosis? How much oil was drained from the pan at that time? Was there any coolant present?
What prompted the mechanic who assessed the loose battery terminals to check the oil level - (never heard of a dead car with no electrical power being caused by low oil level) - did he add any oil? If he was being preventive (good citizen, checking all fluids etc) did he check the coolant level - was it normal? Did he have to add any?
So, has it continued to consume coolant for the last 12 months or did it "repair" itself?

Looking at it from mechanic's persepctive:
"I am presented with a claim for a bearing failure 18 months after the engine rebuild.
Do I gratis tear into the motor to determine the cause of the problem and then ask to be compensated if I find no supporting evidence due to anything I did - or do I ask for a deposit for the investigative analysis and my labour/shop time?"

A requested "deposit" under the circumstances does not appear unreasonable - if interpreted literally, a deposit means gurantee that costs are covered in event problem is unrelated to initial service performed - it does not necessarily preclude that you would ultimately be charged this. It appears you declined to put up the money and so mechanic said, "in that case, your car's taking up valuable shop space, please get it out of here"

When faced with such situations of dispute myself, I try to look at what my thoughts would be if I were on the other side .... ask yourself honestly - Do things look a little different when viewed from the other perspective?

There is assumption on your part (& supported without any credible justification by a number of people who have jumped in on your "side") that the issues were undeniably caused by the rebuild process of 18 months ago and the expectation is the rebuilder should "step up & take responsibility" for the problems.

I can't agree that the rebuilder should just accept guilt until proven otherwise - there are many issues that could cause the problem, especially this long after the fact - if indeed coolant, coolant could be from a blown head gasket for example - as the rebuilder, "how do I know that you have maintained the car with proper oil changes and levels? How do I know you haven't consistently over-revved your car? How do I know you haven't had an external coolant leak that allowed the car to be low on fluid, overheat & cause a problem?"
"Why should I accept someone else's diagnosis of a spun bearing thus being denied the opportunity to determine whether there was even any oil in the motor, or its condition?"

Bottom line is I don't know what happened to your motor & neither does anyone else here (including yourself or the engine re-builder at this juncture) so I am not precluding blame or responsibility against either party.
But it seems like you had the option to use either an independent shop of your choosing to do analysis on root cause of the problem, or go back to the original shop - you would surely have to pay for option 1 and it seems like your expectation is that option 2 would be free.
Who knows, maybe it would have ultimately been free under option 2 based on what was found?

The under-lying question is upon whom does the burden fall to bear the initial costs of the analysis? Maybe it depends on the outcome of the analysis but until it's actually done that may not be clear.

 

[nsxlover]

There's only one side of the story here & raises more questions than answers IMO

Has it continued to leak coolant since that initial reported experience a year ago?
If you were convinced it was leaking coolant internally a year ago, why did you subsequently ignore it?
Who does your oil changes - have they reported any coolant in the oil during drain?
Who determined the # 2 spun bearing diagnosis? How much oil was drained from the pan at that time? Was there any coolant present?
What prompted the mechanic who assessed the loose battery terminals to check the oil level - (never heard of a dead car with no electrical power being caused by low oil level) - did he add any oil? If he was being preventive (good citizen, checking all fluids etc) did he check the coolant level - was it normal? Did he have to add any?
So, has it continued to consume coolant for the last 12 months or did it "repair" itself?

Looking at it from mechanic's persepctive:
"I am presented with a claim for a bearing failure 18 months after the engine rebuild.
Do I gratis tear into the motor to determine the cause of the problem and then ask to be compensated if I find no supporting evidence due to anything I did - or do I ask for a deposit for the investigative analysis and my labour/shop time?"

A requested "deposit" under the circumstances does not appear unreasonable - if interpreted literally, a deposit means gurantee that costs are covered in event problem is unrelated to initial service performed - it does not necessarily preclude that you would ultimately be charged this. It appears you declined to put up the money and so mechanic said, "in that case, your car's taking up valuable shop space, please get it out of here"

When faced with such situations of dispute myself, I try to look at what my thoughts would be if I were on the other side .... ask yourself honestly - Do things look a little different when viewed from the other perspective?

There is assumption on your part (& supported without any credible justification by a number of people who have jumped in on your "side") that the issues were undeniably caused by the rebuild process of 18 months ago and the expectation is the rebuilder should "step up & take responsibility" for the problems.

I can't agree that the rebuilder should just accept guilt until proven otherwise - there are many issues that could cause the problem, especially this long after the fact - if indeed coolant, coolant could be from a blown head gasket for example - as the rebuilder, "how do I know that you have maintained the car with proper oil changes and levels? How do I know you haven't consistently over-revved your car? How do I know you haven't had an external coolant leak that allowed the car to be low on fluid, overheat & cause a problem?"
"Why should I accept someone else's diagnosis of a spun bearing thus being denied the opportunity to determine whether there was even any oil in the motor, or its condition?"

Bottom line is I don't know what happened to your motor & neither does anyone else here (including yourself or the engine re-builder at this juncture) so I am not precluding blame or responsibility against either party.
But it seems like you had the option to use either an independent shop of your choosing to do analysis on root cause of the problem, or go back to the original shop - you would surely have to pay for option 1 and it seems like your expectation is that option 2 would be free.
Who knows, maybe it would have ultimately been free under option 2 based on what was found?

The under-lying question is upon whom does the burden fall to bear the initial costs of the analysis? Maybe it depends on the outcome of the analysis but until it's actually done that may not be clear.

That was well said. An engine build 18 months ago and then trying to blame it on workmanship sounds a little fishy to me. If there is a problem with a rebuild, you would most likely know right away. Maybe pay to have the problem looked at by the mechanic and see what the problem really is. Saying that there is a numer 2 bearing spun, did you take it apart yourself to come up with this or did the mechanic?

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

That was well said. An engine build 18 months ago and then trying to blame it on workmanship sounds a little fishy to me. If there is a problem with a rebuild, you would most likely know right away. Maybe pay to have the problem looked at by the mechanic and see what the problem really is. Saying that there is a numer 2 bearing spun, did you take it apart yourself to come up with this or did the mechanic?

Absolutely. Anything is possible but without a warranty a failure 16 months later is unlikely to generate any interest from anyone as it definitely sounds like a weak case. Still- always, better to document everything- with customers these things take on a life of there own later sometimes especially on an NSX as it is pricey.

IMO likely, given a spun bearing in the bottom end better to just remove the car, get a new used engine or rebuild the existing one somewhere else if you want to try that again and move on- out of pocket. I've had far, far clearer engine failures at the hands of others in various vehicles and still didn't get anywhere or it wasn't worth the hassle to prove/pursue. Quite often with these tyoes of things it's better to just cut losses on the engine and move on.

 

[NSXVURGIN]

break some knee-caps

 

[Jett]

Get The Car Back Now!

I don't see the mechanic as being unreasonable here. You drove the car for more than a year without addressing a known coolant leak which was severe enough to foam the oil. Now you suspect that the engine has spun a bearing(surprise!). The mechanic may not have rebuilt the engine properly, but the time to address the coolant leak was last year, before the engine quit in a probable oil-related failure. But now you hope the mechanic will bite the bullet and fix it again under "warranty" so you can avoid having for pay for the repair? I don't blame the mechanic for balking. I would want to be paid if I work on the car after someone drives around with a major coolant leak for more than a year. So he asks for a large deposit to ensure that you won't bail on him when he finds a spun bearing, or whatever. Since you don't wanna pay, okay, fine, pick up the car. If you take it somewhere else I bet they find essentially the same thing, an oil-related failure. That improper sleeving defense sounds like a non-starter to me, but whatever. You can't or won't pick up the car, so the mechanic is charging you a daily fee as an incentive to come and get it quickly. Do both yourself and him a favor and GET THE CAR BACK NOW! An honest mechanic isn't going to say, "Gee, you should have taken care of this last year, but I will take a week of vacation time and work on the car for you at my own expense." And a dishonest mechanic certainly won't. It matters not whether the mechanic is honest or not, as either would behave in the same fashion in these circumstances.

Grit your teeth and pay the fee to get the car back, then explore your options with a local attorney. However, I dont see you having any reasonable claim to a warranty if you have been operating it in a wounded state for a long time. GET YOUR CAR BACK NOW, beg for or borrow the money if necessary, but for Christ's sake, GET THE CAR BACK NOW!