Science of Speed Twin Turbo

[CL65 Captain]

Interesting that it doesn't address low compression builds. I would think a twin or compound design would work in the favor of a 3.5 low comp system. I wonder if this was an in-house design or maybe adapted from another natorious NSX Turbo builder. Cough...Cody..cough.cough.

Sent from my Droid

No, I think Cody was working on a compound turbo system but gave it up because of the cost/interest. My understanding is a small turbo that blew into a bigger turbo.... this is a straight up twin T with one for each bank.

I'm sure (hoping) Chris will chime in with additional details about running it on a stock engine.

I was just discussing a OEM-like turbo setup with Ross. What I wanted was internal wastgate and recirc valve instead of a atmosphere blow-off valve. I am willing to give up hp to have it completely OEM like in behavior - no sneezing between shifts and no angry bees when on boost (open wastgate). Didn't care what the Dyno looked like or what the exact #s were as long as it was OEM like with more power.

Things I like about this new x2:
- recirc valves
- internal wastgates
- water cooled turbo
- water/air intercooler
- keeps it OEMish
- keep the Targa engine cover
- keep the cats
- keep my Tubi.

That's a lot of keeps.

 

[Juice]

Never mind, it is addressed. Hmmmm...I'm starting to be really torn here. So many options available and SOSs kit is so well done. I was hoping for a bit more HP, but the early boost may compensate for it.

Sent from my Droid

 

[chudson1549]

Based on the pics and dyno info, we can assume a 3.0 motor with a Stage 1 build. What do you guys think the power would be on a 3.0 stock motor? Over 400 still? I don't think so...Which still will not be a bad thing..

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Judging by the car, looks like someone already is "the first."

This should be a great option for FI prospects. Looking forward to some video.

Thank you for all your interest. The release of the twin turbocharger system has been after 2 years of development and we're excited to finally be able to offer it. This product was largely born from your feedback. If there ever was a product we have produced that has directly resulted from customer input, this is it. Taking an OEM approach has allowed us to do away with the negatives of turbocharging and give you everything good.

Here is the official release:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138895

You're correct Shawn. The car used to prototype and test the system is our own in house NSX. The first two production kits will be going in over the next months (a stock 3.0L and built 3.5L). We are installing systems in house now, and expect to begin shipping in October once packaging and installation instructions details are complete.

regards,
-- Chris

 

[Ko-nsx]

Looks like only one type of sway bar will work also. Im not sure which sway bar that is but i have a straight style sway bar.

 

[TurboD16]

Based on the pics and dyno info, we can assume a 3.0 motor with a Stage 1 build. What do you guys think the power would be on a 3.0 stock motor? Over 400 still? I don't think so...Which still will not be a bad thing..

Stock engine has to stayabout 400 or less. Would make no sense to go higher unless they wanted to sell more engine builds :wink:

twin gt28s would do over 600 whp on the 3.5l heck on the 3.0l it could do 550+

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

So which is better? Twin turbos or Comptech supercharger?

Not sure which technically is better for reliability and longevity and which one has the best punch... You would think the twin turbos would be easier on the engine, but I am a n00b in such matters and have no clue.

That is a very good question - and I think the question can be expanded to "which is better: superchargers or turbochargers". Superchargers, especially twin screw superchargers (like the Comptech, CT, and ScienceofSpeed systems), have definite advantages. One advantage is the boost response time. These types of compressors don't require a turbine wheel to spin up to respond to throttle response so it's "instant boost". With the twin turbo system, we've blurred that definition with the increased performance resulting from two smaller turbochargers placed as close to the exhaust ports as possible. While there is still some advantage - it's now pretty minimal - so I think it ultimately comes down to customer preference. I feel that most customers who want to start out at around 400 whp on the stock engine, but have goals down the road for increased power, are best suited to use the twin turbocharger system.

regards,
-- Chris

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Most CTSC are putting down 370RWHP on a 3.2 vs 400 for the Turbo and the Turbo makes more TQ. I would think the turbo would be faster than a CTSC.

On our dyno, a standard CT Supercharger system fitted on a 3.2L NSX produces around 330-340 whp.

take care,
-- Chris

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

OK, so we are at $6,000 for the low comp build and $12,000 for the turbo. So that set-up on the dyno is $18,000 for 416RWHP? Is that right? Looks like it could do 500RWHP with Stage 1.

I would like to know what it does on a stock 3.2L motor.

Is the talk about factory reliability on a stock motor or built motor?

No, this system does not require a stage 1 engine. We recommend wastegate pressure (approximately 6-7 PSI) for stock engines, which produces around 380 on a stock 3.0L and around 400 hp on a stock 3.2L.

take care,
-- Chris

 

[CL65 Captain]

Looks like only one type of sway bar will work also. Im not sure which sway bar that is but i have a straight style sway bar.

If you are using OEM cats I don't think it matters. You can always add spacers (like I had to use with the Dali 1" track bar) to lower the sway so it clears the rear cat.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

That's a lot of keeps.

hi Jim -- You nailed it - taking the OEM approach has given the kit several advantages including the ones you list.

take care,
-- Chris

 

[Ko-nsx]

So Chris, if i may ask, what are the pros of doing a twin setup for 400hp vs a single setup for 400 hp? Is heat a big deal with a twin setup? Was having one turbo to stressful on the OEM cats, so that made it difficult to use them on a single turbo? Does the motor have to be pulled to do the install?

I'm not familiar with a TT setup on an nsx(well this looks nothing like the cartech one on their site), im just trying to understand the reasoning behind a twin setup. The setup looks impressive BTW.:biggrin:

 

[Ko-nsx]

If you are using OEM cats I don't think it matters. You can always add spacers (like I had to use with the Dali 1" track bar) to lower the sway so it clears the rear cat.

Thanks man. My OEM cat is resting on one of my .8 inch (street/race)bar.

Im guessing thats not an OEM sway on the SOS car?

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Thanks man. My OEM cat is resting on one of my .8 inch (street/race)bar.

Im guessing thats not an OEM sway on the SOS car?

This car has an OEM sway bar installed.

take care,
-- Chris

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

So Chris, if i may ask, what are the pros of doing a twin setup for 400hp vs a single setup for 400 hp? Is heat a big deal with a twin setup? Was having one turbo to stressful on the OEM cats, so that made it difficult to use them on a single turbo? Does the motor have to be pulled to do the install?

I'm not familiar with a TT setup on an nsx(well this looks nothing like the cartech one on their site), im just trying to understand the reasoning behind a twin setup. The setup looks impressive BTW.:biggrin:

Thanks for your interest. The main advantage of a twin setup is the ability to place the turbocharger as close to the exhaust ports as possible for best transient boost response (read, reduction in boost lag). Single turbo systems merge the front and rear cylinder banks which adds 3+ feet of tubing before the turbo. he farther away, the less energy is preserved to feed the turbocharger. Ultimately, it may be splitting hairs, but there is a reason why OEMs with V engine designs prefer twin configurations. I am not aware of a single turbo system that uses the factory cats - or offer a catalyzer at all.

 

[Ko-nsx]

This car has an OEM sway bar installed.

take care,
-- Chris

SoRRY to ask so many questions, i'd call but i don't have access to a phone. LAST QUESTION!:biggrin:

1. Can a stiffer sway be used for this application on an NA2?
2. Do you have a layout of the piping?
3. Does the motor have to come out for install?

Im just asking because i can't seem to visualize where all the piping is going to or coimng from.

THANKS FOR YOUR TIME!!!!!:biggrin:

 

[Devin@AEM]

Looks like an extremely nice kit... very nice fit and finish. Excellent work Chris!

 

[CL65 Captain]

SoRRY to ask so many questions, i'd call but i don't have access to a phone. LAST QUESTION!:biggrin:

1. Can a stiffer sway be used for this application on an NA2?
2. Do you have a layout of the piping?
3. Does the motor have to come out for install?

Im just asking because i can't seem to visualize where all the piping is going to or coimng from.

THANKS FOR YOUR TIME!!!!!:biggrin:

I'll answer 1 & 3 for you (let's see if I'm right )

1. yes - the sway in the picture is the early OEM sway. I believe that since they are using OEM cats and exhaust the placement of both end up being the same as OEM. So if you clear the rear cat (top) now you should after. PS: Dali sells some spacers after I indicated that my 1" would rub the rear cat (top) that just drops the mounting of the sways 6mm.

3. No. But I'm sure it would be a lot easier. I have changed the headers on my 2000 so I'm sure this would be the same, as the headers come out and the new manifold with the turbos go in their place. It's tight in there but I'm sure it can be done.

 

[NetViper]

No, this system does not require a stage 1 engine. We recommend wastegate pressure (approximately 6-7 PSI) for stock engines, which produces around 380 on a stock 3.0L and around 400 hp on a stock 3.2L.

take care,
-- Chris

Very nice. Looking forward to seeing a 3.2 done. Would reliability of this system and stress on the motor be comparable to the CTSC?

 

[JLCoolman]

Damn, I tried to post earlier and the servers were too busy.


This system is a pure marvel.

I'm a sucker for great engineering, completeness, and performance without the sacrifice of reliability.
I'm an avid fan of "sleeper" cars and this might just be the pinnacle of everything.


The video looks great, Chris. This system seriously looks like it should've been in there from the beginning. Once again, great job!!


One quick question, what is the install like on this system. I'm guessing you guys designed with ease of installation in mind.










One day. Just wait. After I've properly broken in my NSX. Just one day.
(man, and i was so prepared to leave the NSX essentially stock, and you guys have to come along and change the whole game like this... thanks a lot )

 

[baynsac]

So $18,000 gets you the same power as a $6500 single turbo kit get?
Why not spend the 6k on low comp build and the other $6k on a single turbo kit and get the same results. I understand there might be a slight advantage to twin turbo as they will spool up faster but the single turbo is more linear with the stock OEM charateristics and still drives like an nsx.
Why spend 11K on a twin setup rather than half that cost on a single turbo setup?

OK, so we are at $6,000 for the low comp build and $12,000 for the turbo. So that set-up on the dyno is $18,000 for 416RWHP? Is that right? Looks like it could do 500RWHP with Stage 1.

I would like to know what it does on a stock 3.2L motor.

Is the talk about factory reliability on a stock motor or built motor?

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

As I mentioned, the system is compatible on a stock engine, a stage 1 system is not required. The two twins outflow and out respond a single GT35 used on other single systems. There are lots of other advantages to the system, which you can read on our website.

regards.
-- Chris

 

[DucatiCraig]

Wow.

Absolutely fantastic kit; would be the one I would choose if I weren't already doing it the hard way (SC).



BUT

you gotta find someone sexier to do the voiceover on your video :smile:

 

[roondogg]

I would say that the only change that I would make in this otherwise perfect package is the use of SwainTech for your exhaust coating. People here may not understand the advantage of having a turbo close to the exhaust ports. Subarus have it far away and they suffer b/c of it. EVOs and Supras are close and they benefit, greatly. I wonder if the SOS oil feeds will supply consistent oil pressure through the power band all the way up to 8k. There are very few downsides to this kit. I wish that I waited. The y-pipe that I got is great but it suffers from oil return position issues not to mention that the vendor who sold it to me is horrible.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Good observations, sounds like you've done your homework. We do offer HPC coating as an option, however, being that all components are stainless, and the location of the turbo to exhaust port is very minimal, personally I think such coatings would have negligible performance advantages.

Regarding oil pressure, yes, consistent oil pressure is fed to the turbos because they are fed directly from the cylinder heads which provide consistent oil volume and pressure. The oil volume requirements of the ball bearing turbos are very small.

-- Chris