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Timing Belt Diaster.

J

Jimmy's Black Nsx

Registered Member
Joined
28 June 2005
Messages
80
Location
Bay Area
I over torqued and snapped the valve cover stud. and when i took the valve cover off to replace the stud, I accidently dropped the broken stud (bolt A) in between the cams and the cover plate. At that time I thought no biggie, i whipped out my trust magneitic pick up took which got kept on getting stuck to the rocker arms and everything thing else in there except for the bolt that i need to get out. So I made the mistake of taking things apart not knowing what i was getting into. \i find my self doing a t-belt job, which was not my intentions and way beyond my skill level.

When i removed the belt, i didn't mark the belt, and now I am trying to reinstall the belt not knowing where to allign the belt with the cams ,I dont see any markings on the belt except for the " lll" . is that supose to match up to the III on the crank pulley?
I have the crank and the FR cams at TDC and the rear exh cam advanced at 1/2 tooth my question is are there more marking on the belt other than the lll? Almost all the posts on prime, and the manual says to mark the belt, but how would one mark the belt if it failed....? there has to be factory marks right? i am hoping i dont have to count tooth for tooth on the belt, and if i do can some one tell me what number tooth goes to the which cam?
 
Yes, best thing is to stop working on the car right now and get the car to a place who does a professional job. :)
 
This sounds like the potential for a damaged engine if you continue, Tow it to a shop and bite the bullet have a pro do the job,:wink: not worth the risk.
 
Listen to the first two guys here , DO NOT go any further.

I have seen more than one ACTUAL MECHANIC mess this job up.
 
The factory marks on the belt don't matter. If you have all the cam gears and the crank where they are supposed to be (#1 TDC) slip the belt on and tighten the tensioner. The cams and cam clamps have holes in them and appropriate sized drill bits or punches will help keep them in place. The washer that goes on after the belt on the crank is directional (inside/outside). If you get that wrong you'll be replacing the belt soon.
All that said, the valves on these engines are VERY easy to bend. As you turn the crank (with the sparkplugs removed) be sure there is no resistance felt (that would be your valves hitting the pistons - major bad deal).
Be very careful, you're treading into engine overhaul/replacement if you mess any of this up and as others have stated, even good mechanics have screwed this operation up. Good Luck and Happy Motoring!
 
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I think LARRY stated in another post, if hes messing around down there, he gets zip ties and zips the TB to the cams, both sides as many as he can get on so they dont slip off while doing other repairs.

but like everyone said STOP. you need to bite the bullet and just hand your wallet to the mechanic. LOL

its easy take it out of your pocket and slowly hand it to him, its ok you can do it, try not to shake when your handing it to him as its a sign of weakness LOL

seriously good luck but def get to a NSX mech, they can ussually add the tow truck bill to the repair bill but remember they ad an extra 10% to the tow bill if you go that route.
 
Thanks for the the replies. I would take it to a tech had i known it would end up this way... and since i've managed to get everything off (quite a learning experince) it would be a shame and a waste of time if i throw in the towel and hand it to a mech...
 
Jimmy's Black Nsx said:
Thanks for the the replies. I would take it to a tech had i known it would end up this way... and since i've managed to get everything off (quite a learning experince) it would be a shame and a waste of time if i throw in the towel and hand it to a mech...
Click to expand...

I did the same thing with my RC car because I wanted to "fix" it. I made it run again but it was not as fast as it was befor. Long story short I ended up just buying another one. I hope you dont end up having to buy another NSX also.
 
Jimmy's Black Nsx said:
Thanks for the the replies. I would take it to a tech had i known it would end up this way... and since i've managed to get everything off (quite a learning experince) it would be a shame and a waste of time if i throw in the towel and hand it to a mech...
Click to expand...

No, it would be a shame and a waste of time if you wreck your engine. :rolleyes:
 
Sounds like you are well within your skill level, otherwise you would have just ignored your caution. Taking it to a "professional" teaches you little and leaves you dependent (the American way, I suppose)

This is how you learn and that's the way it goes. As Churchill said: "If you are going through hell, just keep going!"

Learn from other peoples mistakes:
http://www.danoland.com/nsxgarage/bent/index.htm

Read the Timing Belt DIY and read it again.

The marks on the belt are not helpful.

Pull the spark plugs.

Go ahead and index the crank and cam's: If you have not moved the crank or the cams, then you can put the belt on and rotate everything until the index marks line up. If the marks are close, then take off the belt and make adjustments.

If you are not confident of the relative positioning, then you will have to reindex the crank and cams individually.

Go easy on the rotations to make sure you do NOT bend a valve.

There are plenty of people that have done this job. The DIY is quite good. As long as you go slow and act with caution: you'll do just fine.

Drew
 
I'll look through my pictures and extra notes files from when I did the TB on my '96. I subsequently did the job on a '91. Send me a PM with an email address so I can easily attach the files. My response will be late today or tomorrow morning - I'm leaving shortly for an NSXCA event (River Run) in the NE.:biggrin:.

I know you already have the covers off, but you still might find this picture I posted a while ago handy.
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Timing_belt_cover_bolts.jpg" />
 
FTHUY, that map of fastener removal JUST ROCKS! Make sure you put that some place where it doesn't get lost...that is just too cool.

I spend most of my time trying to figure out how to remove the fasteners and you just lay it out perfect.

Jimmy, you should take advantage of this type of education. It costs big money elsewhere, but it is free here. Wow.

Drew
 
This is going to sound all doom-n-gloom but I can tell you a few things after doing my own Timing Belt changes, If you did not start working on the car with #1 at TDC or did not mark the belt & pulleys for there current stop point and you did not pin the cams to prevent movement you are already in trouble and will not likely get things lined back up. Even with everything done to the proper procedures it is very easy to get one or more of the cam gears off by a tooth on the belt. If you allow the cams to move (by not pinning them), you can bend a valve if it comes into contact with a piston. The valves are very fragile and will not take much to bend.

The work is not hard but the procedure is critical. You may be in the area of having to remove or raise the heads in order to allow the lower assemble to turn freely to TDC and allow the cams to be indexed to TDC then reassemble the heads on the lower assemble. It will be a lot of work but it will be safer that way than trying to guess at the proper belt location. You can do the same thing without removing the heads if you wanted to take the cams out but I would not recommend the removal of the cams, that is a job for a very experienced tech and even then I would not do it with the motor in the car.

Best of luck but it may be time to throw in the towel. If you decide to go forward you should spend a day with the service manual reading the proper steps, then order the parts you will need (gaskets, seals, ect.). Then start your repair.

Dave
 
LOL. That is pretty doom and gloom. I'm pretty sure there's no way to remove the heads without taking off the cams first to gain access to the head bolts. I've removed the cams but I would never consider removing the heads for something like this.

The manual is very clear on the procedure. As already stated, there are no marks on the belt that correlate to the cams-you align the cams using their marks, and slip the belt on, keeping it taut between the sprockets. Again, follow the manual. Be patient, be smart, be careful. Take lots of notes and pictures. Enjoy yourself while working on a darn fine machine. When you're done, rotate the crank carefully by hand with the plugs out, and make sure there are not interferences. When you fire it up use a vacuum gauge to see if you got it right. You're not the first to fall into the deep end of the pool like this. A few drown but most don't. :biggrin:

You said you have the engine @ #1 TDC. Are you sure that's on the compression stroke?
 
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Jimmy's Black Nsx said:
Thanks for the the replies. I would take it to a tech had i known it would end up this way... and since i've managed to get everything off (quite a learning experince) it would be a shame and a waste of time if i throw in the towel and hand it to a mech...
Click to expand...

It's your car...:) VIN? :D
 
If you're set on attacking the job yourself, a couple of hints.
0. Read the Gary Kentosh DIY about 5 times. Read the shop manual. Repeat.
1. Completely back off all the valve adjustments so no valves can open. This is your safety net.
2. Then line up the cams and crank, using the pin punches to hold the cams in place.
3. Install the belt. When fitting the belt, pull super hard on the belt on that first length between the crank and the front exhaust cam - its easy to be one tooth too loose on that long run. (This is where Gary's "mark the belt" really helped me, but you don't have that luxury.) The rest should line up OK. The 1/2 tooth off on the rear exhaust cam is to slip the belt into place. Once the belt is in place, it's marks should line up.
4. Remove the pin punches from the cams. Leave the valves "unadjusted".
5. Follow the steps in the manual on setting the adjuster. No shortcuts - its a 2-step process. And, NEVER turn the crank counter-clockwise; even a small anount can make the belt skip a topoth and you are back to step 2 again.
6. Now, here's the check, check, and check again part. Turning ONLY in the clockwise direction, turn the crankshaft one or two turns until the cams timing marks are on TDC again. Do all the marks line up? Is the crank at TDC? This is the step that will reveal if you were off by a tooth or two on any cam - especially the rear exhaust cam.
7. I was super anal at this point. It only adds a couple minutes to a 10 to 20 hour job, so its worth it. Turn the crank an even number of turns - say 6 , 8 or 10 turns, clockwise ONLY. Do all the cam/crank marks end up at TDC?
If so, take a deep breath. The belt is on correctly.
8. Remove the crank pulley again, install the timing belt covers, do the finall install on the crank pulley, lubricating it & torqueing to 181 ft-lbs per page 6-12 in the (1995) shop manual.
9. Now adjust all the valves and complete the rest of the job.
 
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Jimmy's Black Nsx said:
Thanks for the the replies. I would take it to a tech had i known it would end up this way... and since i've managed to get everything off (quite a learning experince) it would be a shame and a waste of time if i throw in the towel and hand it to a mech...
Click to expand...

I got real lucky when I replaced my Tbelt. I thought I had it on correctly but the rear cam gear was off 2 teeth (I had done other Tbelts on other cars and I always turned the crank before I tightened the tensioner to look at the alignment marks - don't do that on this engine - always tighten the tensioner before you turn the crank - if you don't you will advance the Tbelt on the rear crank gear 2 teeth). When I started it up, the engine missed terribly. I took it apart again and was able to turn the crank until I found a sweet-spot were both cams could turn with no resistance. I put them at #1 TDC, pinned them in the positioning holes and readjusted the belt. I'm just saying that you can still do this without any further disassembly. Let us know your outcome. Happy Motoring!
 
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drew said:
Sounds like you are well within your skill level, otherwise you would have just ignored your caution. Taking it to a "professional" teaches you little and leaves you dependent (the American way, I suppose)

This is how you learn and that's the way it goes. As Churchill said: "If you are going through hell, just keep going!"

Learn from other peoples mistakes:
http://www.danoland.com/nsxgarage/bent/index.htm

Read the Timing Belt DIY and read it again.

The marks on the belt are not helpful.

Pull the spark plugs.

Go ahead and index the crank and cam's: If you have not moved the crank or the cams, then you can put the belt on and rotate everything until the index marks line up. If the marks are close, then take off the belt and make adjustments.

If you are not confident of the relative positioning, then you will have to reindex the crank and cams individually.

Go easy on the rotations to make sure you do NOT bend a valve.

There are plenty of people that have done this job. The DIY is quite good. As long as you go slow and act with caution: you'll do just fine.

Drew
Click to expand...

I agree with Drew here. As long as you have enough time to be down and need not have the car back on the road in a hurry, do the job and learn. You seem smart enough to do this at this point.

There is a "wealth" of knowledge here on Prime to tackle the job as long as you are: 1) confident, 2) organized, 3) patient, 4) have all tools and documents handy and learn how to use them.
Find as many posts related to this and read them, then print the necessary photos and tips to have available for each step (kind of like an outline). Use cups and containers clearly marked for all your fasteners.

Member ftuhy has given some good points on this thread as an example of the wealth of knowledge here. Just remember, seminars have been given at XPO's on how to do this. I don't recall any classes here on how to make enough big $$ to just hand it over to the pros who are always "on-the-clock".

Good luck and let us know what you decide. :biggrin:
 
thank you all for the support. sorry i have been in the garage for the last however many days....and havent checked in.

i've read the diy write up, its very helpful and concise on proper steps to take for a tbelt job,, however i failed to mark the belt and i've already taken the cams off.. not indenting to perform a tbelt job or reindexing the cams. i just wanted to get to the damn stud and magnet pick up tool i dropped in there...
so the way i see it, damages if any would already have been caused and i am already out top $$$$$, so why not?

but hey, when i was 16 i didnt know how to do an oil change until i did one on my mom's car against her will....although t-belt job on Hondas flagship car is a bit different, same concept i guess.... will keep u all posted.... thanks again
 

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