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What's the most power you can get from full engine build to just doing the heads?

BATMANs

BATMANs

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I've had a couple of non Prime folks ask me this and like to grow my knowledge base on this topic to sure with them.

The only benefits I can see with regards to doing block work are:

1. blue print and balancing
2. lighter pistons (for NA applications 4032 forged pistons are the lightest)
3. increasing the CR (500HP~ 911 4.0 are at 12.6 CR if I recalled correctly)

I like to know with thermal coatings, valve job, port clean up, and port/manifold matching what else am I missing?
 
I would love to build a 12.5:1 CR NSX NA motor however I'm not sure you can achieve this reliably with our standard injector configuration and 91 pump gas. My BRZ has 12.5:1 CR and runs on pump gas but has an advanced direction injection system (actually it has 8 injectors). I believe the RS 4.0 is direct injected too but i'm not 100% certain.

EDIT TO ADD: Direct Injection is also a contributor to being able to run aftermarket FI kits on the stock BRZ at roughly 5-7lbs even with 12.5CR! Vortech has just released theirs pending CARB approval.
 
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It depends on how "streetable" they want to be.

The biggest limiting factor to NA power on the NSX engine is the camshaft profile.

The heads, in stock configuration, are already "big boy" heads. Meaning, they will flow enough for 90% of the applications out there. I have a lot of good data that I'm not ready to share yet, but I recently had a set of heads go through a bunch of flow testing. Stock, valve job, bowl blend, +1 intake valve, combustion chamber work, +2 intake valve, full port.

Once my heads go onto my car, I will determine maximum piston-to-valve and valve-to-valve clearance. From there I will have custom camshafts made that will give me the most lift and duration possible without my valves kissing my pistons or each other.

Thermal coatings (like Swain-Tech, Cerakote, etc.), metal surface finishes (WPC), and other (DLC coatings) are all shown to make about 1-2% more power. The cost-benefit ratio on these processes is not great, but if you're looking for every last bit of power and durability, this is where the money goes.

As to the block itself, once again, depending on needs, you could install oil squirters, as well as re-work the oil return passages. For the ultimately in fastener strength, A1 is >>> ARP's 2000 line, but is also $$$ vs. $.

As to compression ratios, I think 12.0-12.5:1 is the most I'd run, but I would be on EMS before trying it.
 
Last edited:
RYU said:
I would love to build a 12.5:1 CR NSX NA motor however I'm not sure you can achieve this reliably with our standard injector configuration and 91 pump gas. My BRZ has 12.5:1 CR and runs on pump gas but has an advanced direction injection system (actually it has 8 injectors). I believe the RS 4.0 is direct injected too but i'm not 100% certain.
Click to expand...

I was going to broach this topic on the 300rwhp without opening engine thread, but it's really a different topic since that thread talks more about bolt ons.

In this thread please feel free to discuss the supporting mods to make it work.

In this case upgrades like the RDX injectors and tune to support higher CR engines is appropriate.

- - - Updated - - -

To be quite frank if I didn't have the SOS SC at the time of my engine needing a rebuild I certainly may have explored the all engine approach, but the sad thing is that there is VERY little knowledge base on the matter. It's not like this is an LSx platform.
 
Considering the amount of flow these heads seem capable of, I don't see why (if someone were to really put some money into an NA build) they couldn't obtain 400-500hp.

RYU said:
I would love to build a 12.5:1 CR NSX NA motor however I'm not sure you can achieve this reliably with our standard injector configuration and 91 pump gas.
Click to expand...

Why do you think the NSX's injection system is so inadequate?
 
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RDX injection is the way to go for a NA car or low boost NSX.
I'm a big fan of the improved atomization and spray pattern, just sticking in simple bigger injectors with out improving the spray pattern isn't efficient.

A properly built NA NSX can push 130-140 HP/L which is a lot!
Now there is off course some degree of possible confusion between members around the world, (let's state this before we get in to discussions)
Japanese tuners tune for JDM fuel which i recall being at something like 99-100 RON

In certain parts of Europe 99-105 RON Octane fuel is available 95 and 98 RON are the norm.
Not sure what the exact AKI (US) conversion on Octane is I should look up my engineering books.

Then comes the controversy regards to Dyno sheet out puts and climatic effects.
Exact tune and output is a very debatable topic with a lot of external factors.
 
I've seen multiple cars do that, the former SoS NA show car did it and a few NSX's from Japan have been running around the 460 HP mark on 3.5's (that's where my comment on ratings and conversions kicks in)
We are talking some major investment here, stroker kit, itb's full stand alone tune, porting and polish and different cam profiles.
It isn't a run of the mill project.
 
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Bump. Can Jon Martin be coaxed out of hiding to build a 3.8L these days? Or is SoS 3.5L about the limit?

Do these things require full standalone engine management or can they be tuned on something like an FIC + stock OBD2 ECU?
 
Bat

Ive been on the following: bored/stroked and sleeved that can slightly pull my c6 zo6. :)

Benson sleeved block
Arp studs
Wiseco piston at stock compression and coated
Carillo rods
Crower crank (KNIFE EDGED)
baffled oil pan
Port and polished head (aggressively swirled intake side, extreme polish exh side)
Ss valves
Valve spring / keepers / updated guides etc
Port matched intake mani
Extrude and honed intake manifold
Cometic head gasket
Comptech cams
Comptech cam gears
Billet oil pump gear
Cryo treated transmission
Tilton clutch
Forgot what flywheel
Rc injectors
Aem v2
Misc items I can't think of but you get the idea.
 
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BATMANs said:
MAzda has the highest CR at 13:1 for pump gas
Click to expand...

And the 2014 Ferrari 458 Speciale has a compression ratio of 14:1. Its naturally-aspirated 4.5 liter V8 puts out 597 bhp at 9000 rpm on pump gas.

To run that kind of compression, I'd guess you need (amongst other things) really tight control of the combustion process with cylinder-specific knock sensors and cylinder-specific control of fuel and ignition timing. Since our NSXs only have one knock sensor per cylinder bank, we can't have cylinder-specific control of fuelling and ignition timing unless we seriously upgrade the engine's electronics. That would be a cool project, though.

I believe Jon Martin experimented with compression ratios when he was designing his 3.8 liter NSX engine and based on what he found, decided not to go too high. Best to speak directly with him, though.
 
Last edited:
greenberet said:
I believe Jon Martin experimented with compression ratios when he was designing his 3.8 liter NSX engine and based on what he found, decided not to go too high. Best to speak directly with him, though.
Click to expand...

Is he reachable anywhere these days?
 
greenberet said:
And the 2014 Ferrari 458 Speciale has a compression ratio of 14:1. Its naturally-aspirated 4.5 liter V8 puts out 597 bhp at 9000 rpm on pump gas.

To run that kind of compression, I'd guess you need (amongst other things) really tight control of the combustion process with cylinder-specific knock sensors and cylinder-specific control of fuel and ignition timing. Since our NSXs only have one knock sensor per cylinder bank, we can't have cylinder-specific control of fuelling and ignition timing unless we seriously upgrade the engine's electronics. That would be a cool project, though.
.
Click to expand...

Already implemented on my customer's NSX. :) The AEM infinity has the capability to do individual knock control with the factory knock sensors. It determines where in the crankshaft rotation the knock event happened (tooth count from crank/cam sensors) and once it has that data it knows what cylinder/cylinders experienced the event and alters fuel or timing output to reduce it (based on users own set of rules of course).

- - - Updated - - -

BATMANs said:
I just learned that the Mazda Skyactiv sold outside of the USA is a 14:1 CR thanks to higher octane gas in other countries.
Click to expand...

Yea, but the 458 can run the crappy petrol we have in the states by comparison and still produce good power :)

- - - Updated - - -

L_RAO said:
It depends on how "streetable" they want to be.

The biggest limiting factor to NA power on the NSX engine is the camshaft profile.

The heads, in stock configuration, are already "big boy" heads. Meaning, they will flow enough for 90% of the applications out there. I have a lot of good data that I'm not ready to share yet, but I recently had a set of heads go through a bunch of flow testing. Stock, valve job, bowl blend, +1 intake valve, combustion chamber work, +2 intake valve, full port.

Once my heads go onto my car, I will determine maximum piston-to-valve and valve-to-valve clearance. From there I will have custom camshafts made that will give me the most lift and duration possible without my valves kissing my pistons or each other.

Thermal coatings (like Swain-Tech, Cerakote, etc.), metal surface finishes (WPC), and other (DLC coatings) are all shown to make about 1-2% more power. The cost-benefit ratio on these processes is not great, but if you're looking for every last bit of power and durability, this is where the money goes.

As to the block itself, once again, depending on needs, you could install oil squirters, as well as re-work the oil return passages. For the ultimately in fastener strength, A1 is >>> ARP's 2000 line, but is also $$$ vs. $.

As to compression ratios, I think 12.0-12.5:1 is the most I'd run, but I would be on EMS before trying it.
Click to expand...

I know what the factory heads flow and although they are decent stock, the CNC porting I am having done to my heads increases it to right around 20 percent more with OEM sized valves and 26 percent with oversized; which in terms of HP is quite significant when you have two heads :) With the combustion chamber re-work if you are running 93 octane I would see no problem doing a 13:1 compression build and have it be moderately aggressively tuned. On E85 its a different story of course.

I am also going through the notions of getting cams built in the coming months. Perhaps we should discuss details on these to lessen the burden of the time factor. I do agree the factory camshafts simply aren't big enough, and I don't think any other cam on the market is either. When you have VTEC there is nothing wrong with running a slightly aggressive primary lobe that can give some low end grunt for larger displacement and decent fuel economy while having the VTEC lobe give you the "get work done" power curve that we crave :)

- - - Updated - - -

BATMANs said:
I've had a couple of non Prime folks ask me this and like to grow my knowledge base on this topic to sure with them.

The only benefits I can see with regards to doing block work are:

1. blue print and balancing
2. lighter pistons (for NA applications 4032 forged pistons are the lightest)
3. increasing the CR (500HP~ 911 4.0 are at 12.6 CR if I recalled correctly)

I like to know with thermal coatings, valve job, port clean up, and port/manifold matching what else am I missing?
Click to expand...

Also for the block:

-Sleeves will give you bigger bore options, and I'm sure you already know about the stroker crank options out there as well.
-Lightweight custom rods. You can do aluminum which doesn't have a super long life span but will yield better power results and they don't cost that much comparitively to the factory Titanium ones.
-Lighter custom pistons with short skirt design or asymetrical design with the skirt and crown coatings (for thermal protection and reduced friction)
-Oil shed coatings on the rotating assembly where applicable. Even though it is a balanced engine, when oil touches it, it will technically throw it off balance.
-A good harmonic balancer to tie it all together

Just my 32 cents and if I remember anything else I'll add it later
 
When I did my engine I did look into stroking it and resleeving with Darton for more power goals, but was advised from my engine builder (who's been doing engines for 20+ years and the owner has been doing it for 40+ years) that resleeving ads a risk of coolant leakage based on his decades of experience.

He said that the C30A block is well designed and cools better.

Part of the NSX allure and "exotic" factory are the titanium con rods - so I left them in there and that was also part of deciding against the stroker kit too.

My piston are custom built to my specs (thicker crown, 3 different coatings (for thermal protection, oil shedding, and reduced friction). I didn't go with a partial skirt since I was advised against that as well - based on decades of experience (they also work on indy engines that (rich) private parties buy for their boats).

I have the best harmonic balancer for the NSX engine.
 
BATMANs said:
When I did my engine I did look into stroking it and resleeving with Darton for more power goals, but was advised from my engine builder (who's been doing engines for 20+ years and the owner has been doing it for 40+ years) that resleeving ads a risk of coolant leakage based on his decades of experience.

He said that the C30A block is well designed and cools better.

Part of the NSX allure and "exotic" factory are the titanium con rods - so I left them in there and that was also part of deciding against the stroker kit too.

My piston are custom built to my specs (thicker crown, 3 different coatings (for thermal protection, oil shedding, and reduced friction). I didn't go with a partial skirt since I was advised against that as well - based on decades of experience (they also work on indy engines that (rich) private parties buy for their boats).

I have the best harmonic balancer for the NSX engine.
Click to expand...

Coming from an individual that has done almost 150 sleeved engine builds it all comes down to install on them. I contacted Steve @ race engine development( I believe he or someone from the company were the designers of the sleeves for the NSX) he does NSX sleeves without any hiccups and he would be the only one I trust to do the sleeve install on the C block. I am having him do mine very soon. I don't know why your people would advise against the short skirt piston or asymmetrical design unless you told them you wanted an engine that would last over a decade of hard use and high miles. I use them in my engine builds both FI and NA. JE even has a whole line of pistons devoted to the asymmetric design and they are freakin sweet. You should look up those designs and how many race teams use them for competition. They work. Especially on a"V" engine. Otherwise all the other mods look pretty good to me. If you want to discuss cylinder head options to complete you package later down the road I can give you my input as well.
 
dmscrx said:
I don't know why your people would advise against the short skirt piston or asymmetrical design unless you told them you wanted an engine that would last over a decade of hard use and high miles.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I want. A well-maintained stock NSX will essentially last forever and I refuse to sacrifice that just because I want to build the motor. Full skirt 4032 pistons for me, I think.
 
dmscrx said:
Coming from an individual that has done almost 150 sleeved engine builds it all comes down to install on them........ I don't know why your people would advise against the short skirt piston or asymmetrical design unless you told them you wanted an engine that would last over a decade of hard use and high miles...... JE even has a whole line of pistons devoted to the asymmetric design and they are freakin sweet.....
Click to expand...

My engine builder does work for some of the richest people in the Bay Area, which has some of the richest people in the world. His customers let him touch engines that are so rare that sometimes there are perhaps 3 in the world. I told him I want a bullet proof engine and we spec'd out my engine to handle 750HP, yet I'll be using about 2/3 of that power limit (my father was a F104 jet fighter and always told me that he doesn't use more than 80% of the jet's capability).

I consider Wiseco to be the Lexus of pistons and JE the Toyota (both owned by the same company).
 
bngl3rt said:
That is exactly what I want. A well-maintained stock NSX will essentially last forever and I refuse to sacrifice that just because I want to build the motor. Full skirt 4032 pistons for me, I think.
Click to expand...

That's been the dilemma people have been faced with for years.. Keep it stock and no problems. You want to go fast, then it comes with certain responsibilities and sacrifices. You will always sacrifice something for the name of performance. That's what separates you from me and you from a lot of people in the world. Nothing wrong with that; to each his own :) A full skirt piston won't get you a forever engine either. It is how it's built and how it is driven and treated. Hell even a stock motor won't get you forever if you don't take care of it. Some have failed simply because anything built by man is statistically going to have premature failure. I have built race-spec engines that are close to almost 100k so far. Still running. They are producing quadruple the power for which they were designed and thensome. That is a respectable lifespan for such an engine and if the customer is happy and that is what matters to me.

- - - Updated - - -

BATMANs said:
My engine builder does work for some of the richest people in the Bay Area, which has some of the richest people in the world. His customers let him touch engines that are so rare that sometimes there are perhaps 3 in the world. I told him I want a bullet proof engine and we spec'd out my engine to handle 750HP, yet I'll be using about 2/3 of that power limit (my father was a F104 jet fighter and always told me that he doesn't use more than 80% of the jet's capability).

I consider Wiseco to be the Lexus of pistons and JE the Toyota (both owned by the same company).
Click to expand...


I think the same where JE is the real deal (Toyota) and Wiseco is presented as the better brand but it really isn't (Lexus) In japan, the Toyota models are better than the Lexus comparatives of the same vehicle :)

You guy didn't build stephan papdakis's engine either.. it's only the fastest powered Honda in the world (which isn't rare at all) and that was a cheap racing program too haha. Everyone's engine builder is the best. Everyone's choice of product is the best. In the end, results are what matters. Skin the cat whatever way you want :) My engine will be built for 1800BHP but I will only use close to 80 percent of that (you hit the nail on the head) as well but then again we are on a totally different playing field with what we want for our NSXs :)
 

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