Would love input from you guys: Damper/ spring setup

[Fatal Lightning]

Front Springs are rusted and everything is getting pretty old so it's time for a new set.

INFO:

1.) 18's in the front and 19's in the rear
2.) Planning to daily drive from now on (Pretty much all street use and no tracking)

What is everyones recommendation?

As of now, I am looking at this:

http://www.kwsuspensions.com/products/kw-suspensions-kw-coilover-kit-v3-acura-nsx-35250022.html

Thanks in advance

 

[Jinks]

Can’t go wrong with KW. However, I sometimes wish I had just done the bilsteins on lower perch only because, I’m not a track guy and the KW or any other racing damper variant takes lots of time adjusting. Which means, lots of burned up weekends tinkering with shit for no reason if you’re not racing for money. But still an awesome choice. Just takes time to get the feel and gives you the option to tune it to your liking.

 

[Fatal Lightning]

*Looking to get more responses in the General Forum:

Front Springs are rusted and everything is getting pretty old so it's time for a new set.

INFO:

1.) 18's in the front and 19's in the rear
2.) Planning to daily drive from now on (Pretty much all street use and no tracking)

What is everyones recommendation?

As of now, I am looking at this:

http://www.kwsuspensions.com/product...-35250022.html

Thanks in advance

 

[goldNSX]

If you take over the recommended settings from KW (out of the box) you don't have to hassle with it. This setting is already good.

I just went softer on compression and a tad firmer on the rebound.

Please delete your post in the general forum.

 

[Honcho]

The KW V3 for the NSX is one of the most thoroughly developed suspension options for our cars. Billy Johnson [MENTION=16531]stuntman[/MENTION] spent a lot of time working up this system and for all but the most dedicated motorsports-focused NSX, it is more than enough damper for your needs. KW tuned the system on a real NSX on their 7-post testing rig, so they got the motion ratios and chassis balance right. Then, they went and tested it on the Nurburgring on a NSX. So, from a development perspective, the KW is probably second only to the factory suspension in terms of actual testing on a real NSX for a commercial suspension option. Considering a new NSX-R suspension is $4,000 (plus at least a 6 month wait time from Japan), and the Type-S suspension is potentially not available anymore, it's probably your best bet if you want a no-compromise solution.

That being said, I was involved with BC Racing's development of a suspension on my old 91 NSX. With a 10/8 kg Swift spring combo, that setup was fantastic on the street and very trackable. It is, however, a much lower grade of damper compared to KW. If you are not going to track the car, you should consider it. As I understand it, my old BC setup is still running strong on that car.

Also, you should take a look at the JRZ RS One option. It's a bit more than the KW, but of the same level of quality. The JRZ is more of a motorsports-focused damper, with an aluminum body vs. stainless steel for the KW. Thus, the durability might not be as good. Also, I'm not sure how much development work JRZ put into their consumer NSX damper. While I know that their motorsports program has a huge level of support, those are on bespoke race cars and any settings likely will not translate to a street-driven NSX. The same is true for Moton, MCS, Bilstein and other full race setups.

Thus, if I were you, I'd consider:

KW
JRZ RS One
Type-S (if you can find one in Japan)
BC (If not concerned about racing)

 

[shingli2k]

Link doesn't work but I assume it is the KWV3? I just installed a set maybe 2-300 miles ago and its been good so far. It is def more stiff than stock but it soaks up the bumps fairly well. You wont be disappointed its a good set for the streets.

 

[Mac Attack]

Front Springs are rusted and everything is getting pretty old so it's time for a new set.

INFO:

1.) 18's in the front and 19's in the rear
2.) Planning to daily drive from now on (Pretty much all street use and no tracking)

What is everyones recommendation?

As of now, I am looking at this:

http://www.kwsuspensions.com/products/kw-suspensions-kw-coilover-kit-v3-acura-nsx-35250022.html

Thanks in advance

I highly recommend you ride in others cars first before making a decision.... Take into account how slammed they are, their wheels/tires, the road quality, etc. Did you attend this meet? Seemed like a good opportunity to check out a bunch of setups:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/206171-2018-MidEast-NSX-Meet-Videos-amp-Photos

Ride is very subjective and there are a lot of options out there for every price range.

The ticket right now seems to be the Ohlins DFV as the best compromise for street comfort and handling. Unfortunately, it costs a tad more than the KW. If you go on BMW and Porsche forums, it's the general consensus those that have upgraded from the KWs to the DFVs are very happy. Sakebomb has a kit for the NSX available now, and I'm working with Performance Shock, Inc on a custom Ohlins application (mostly for the street).

 

[Fatal Lightning]

Thanks guys for the input...

The community here has always been amazing

Hoping to get more responses before I make my decision

 

[jwmelvin]

Though you said daily driving and not track driving, I think it's important to consider what kind of response you want out of the car. That is largely a function of spring rates.* I went with 10k/8k spring rates and I think that's pretty good when I autocross the car (as it would be if I were to track it) but it's unnecessary for most of the driving I do. When coupled with less-than-sophisticated dampers, it results in a somewhat harsh ride on the street. I think that a big benefit of the KWv3 that many people like is the relatively soft springs (6k/6k, as seen here). As spring rates climb, my suspicion is that the system requires a higher-quality damper for one reason or another. It's possibly because the relevant frequencies start to climb. In any event, I rode in a car with KW Clubsport (8k springs) and it felt quite nice compared to my car with BC Racing dampers and 10k/8k springs. As [MENTION=20915]RYU[/MENTION] points out in this post, if you aren't tracking then you will likely be better off with softer springs unless you really care about the car being responsive.


* I understand that some notion of responsiveness can come from increasing the damping, the problem is that it affects only transient performance and it seems to me that spring rate is the primary parameter for balance and baseline transition speed.

 

[Mac Attack]

The wiki link here has a nice comparison of spring rates used in some of the common setups:
http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Suspension

The reason I asked earlier if you were slammed is because a lowered NSX with a soft suspension will be hitting the rear bumpstops frequently if you have poor roads in your area. This would probably be worse than a stiffer setup. The motion ratio in the rear of the NSX is ~1:1... that is for every cm the rear wheel travels, the rear shock shaft moves the same distance. If you're slammed, the lesser quality aftermarket shocks simply don't have the remaining suspension travel to absorb any more bumps and you will slam into the relatively hard rubber bumpstops and violently disturb the rear. The fronts have a different motion ratio and don't typically have this problem.

In that regard, the KW's were sized specifically for the NSX and are about halfway between the old OEM spring rates and the Honda performance variant spring rates. However, be aware these are not perfect and a number of owners have reported leaking seals and noises. A search here will turn them up.

The street version of the DFVs that Sakebomb sells have also been sized for the NSX and are relatively soft 8/6 kg/mm springs. (No, I don't have Ohlins DFV's and have no association with Sakebomb)....

It's interesting to note that the KW spring rates are roughly equal front/back like the common OEM Honda's. The OEM Honda performance variants have front spring rates slightly stiffer than the rears. This is simply due to the frequency calcs that are typically used for performance vehicles.

 

[jwmelvin]

The OEM Honda performance variants have front spring rates slightly stiffer than the rears. This is simply due to the frequency calcs that are typically used for performance vehicles.

... and presumably due to the aforementioned difference in motion ration between front and rear. Due to the rear weight balance, and the typical tuning for higher rear frequency than front frequency, one might otherwise expect stiffer springs in back.

The KW rates will tend toward more oversteer, assuming no change in swaybars.

 

[goldNSX]

KW is very good
- very good valving, wide enough range
- better grip than stock
- reasonable spring rates (6 kg/mm)

Some design flaws
- not a monotube shock (due to the adjustability)
- too long to install. With their spring rates they could have cancelled the helper spring to reduce the next problem
- noisy (as most coilovers)
- uncertain about the longterm quality, I guess Bilstein beats them all

Öhlins DFV.
Not sure if you know about that but I guy in Italy did a customized setup with Öhlins. For me, it's just another 'dino' coilover kit when I compare it to the suspension in my CTR 2018. I'd only switch to something new when you can get the adjustability of the shock valving from your drivers seat. The NSX is a low volume car, so it's hard to be expected they offer such a set in the future...

Sakebomb doesn't have a kit yet but you can put a downpayment of $1000, no idea what the final price will be.

JRZ: While I know that their motorsports program has a huge level of support, ...

My very shy response: don't expect the same level from them as a street driver. Hard to reach, no answers, nothing, it looks like they're only dealing with motorsport and avoid the other markets.

 

[mwagner10702]

@Fatal Lighting - you never indicated what your budget is. This would help with a recommendation as there is no value in recommending a high end damper if you don't have the budget. There are lots of moderately priced damper / spring combos out there, however none will be of the coilover variety.

 

[Mac Attack]

[MENTION=28830]jwmelvin[/MENTION] Thanks for the correction Jason!

Like comparing just clutch flywheel weights, the spring rate difference front/rear is really irrelevant. The important parameter is the wheel rate.

This site has a nice simplified overview of suspension design:
http://www.rapid-racer.com/suspension-tuning.php

KW is very good
- very good valving, wide enough range
- better grip than stock
- reasonable spring rates (6 kg/mm)

Some design flaws
- not a monotube shock (due to the adjustability)
- too long to install. With their spring rates they could have cancelled the helper spring to reduce the next problem
- noisy (as most coilovers)
- uncertain about the longterm quality, I guess Bilstein beats them all

Öhlins DFV.
Not sure if you know about that but I guy in Italy did a customized setup with Öhlins. For me, it's just another 'dino' coilover kit when I compare it to the suspension in my CTR 2018. I'd only switch to something new when you can get the adjustability of the shock valving from your drivers seat. The NSX is a low volume car, so it's hard to be expected they offer such a set in the future...

Sakebomb doesn't have a kit yet but you can put a downpayment of $1000, no idea what the final price will be.

I'm aware of the guy in Italy that made a set for his NSX. The problem is, Ohlins only recently (i.e. last 8 months or so) released a longer stroke version of the DFVs. He was using short ones that are even too short for S2000's, so I'm sure he is riding on the bumpstops frequently.

The $1000 Sakebomb is just the downpayment. The full "street" kit with new top hats is around $3800. I think the people that have this kit have posted their opinions on FB, but I don't have FB....

Congratulations on the CTR! I went for a ride with an ex-NSX owner that purchased one and was very impressed. The suspension is awesome. I've been waiting for an aftermarket adaptive system but have given up any hope within the next few years. Tenneco (the parent company of Monroe) has their dual-mode damper available for OEs, but isn't willing to provide a custom setup for an individual. Ideally, I would wait for their Driv, but then you would need four-wheel speed sensors (not a problem if you have a working ABS), steering input sensor, and an accelerometer.

Ohlins also has their own adaptive suspension that they provide to mst European OEs IIRC.

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

Blast from the past. Haven’t seen this name in a while!

 

[Fatal Lightning]

I currently run Koni Yellows, but it's time to replace them and the springs.

Looking to:

1.) Keep close to the same ride height
2.) Minimize tire wear (going to aim for 93 Spec alignment)
3.) Increase ride quality (knowing I will sacrifice performance)
4.) Spend 3k max (lower is always nice)

Thanks everyone

Current ride height that I would like to maintain (running 18/19)

 

[goldNSX]

I'm aware of the guy in Italy that made a set for his NSX. The problem is, Ohlins only recently (i.e. last 8 months or so) released a longer stroke version of the DFVs. He was using short ones that are even too short for S2000's, so I'm sure he is riding on the bumpstops frequently.

Öhlins shock are quite short. The longer stroke version would be the better choice then. On youtube there's a video of a S2000 with Öhlins on the lift and the suspension travel is inferior indeed esp. in the rear. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo0JTEPuNoM at 7:30...

Congratulations on the CTR! I went for a ride with an ex-NSX owner that purchased one and was very impressed. The suspension is awesome.

The suspension is excellent indeed. I had the choice between the FK2R and FK8R and went with the newer one because of the added 'comfort' mode. The interesting thing is that the three modes are closer to each other than in any aftermarket coilover system (from full soft to full hard). It doesn't get overly harsh in Type R mode. Some owners get wrid of the 20'' rims and mount 19'' or 18'' for the track and report back a much more compliant ride but less responsiveness as expected.

 

[goldNSX]

I currently run Koni Yellows, but it's time to replace them and the springs.

Looking to:

1.) Keep close to the same ride height
2.) Minimize tire wear (going to aim for 93 Spec alignment)
3.) Increase ride quality (knowing I will sacrifice performance)
4.) Spend 3k max (lower is always nice

Thanks everyone

Current ride height that I would like to maintain (running 18/19)

Did you also see: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...-Koni-yellow-still-good?p=1974997#post1974997

There has been the recommendation to rebuild the Konis and maybe revalve them. Bilstein does the same thing but got more expensive over time... Sometimes you're better off buying new ones. If you favor a high ride quality the Bilsteins are the better choice than the Konis. But both are not meant for extreme lowering. Leaves open the choice of the springs...

The ride is hard to judge from the picture and not knowing your tire sizes. I'd suggest to lift it about 1/2''. This will also reduce tire wear on the inside (less camber).

 

[Mac Attack]

The KWs sound like a good option for you then. If you can hold off a bit and try to check out some other NSXs first, that's what I would recommend.

Good luck!

 

[docjohn]

..also I would work my delts less....triceps more to get a better posterior upper arm tie-in.....:tongue:

 

[Fatal Lightning]

Hey Guys,

Considering that I am only looking for street use, my install guy is saying to just go for Bilsteins and install the original springs on the lower perch

1.) Is that enough drop for 18/19 wheels and come close to my current ride height (see pic)
2.) My thoughts are that the OEM Springs are designed to be used with only OEM shocks

Input?

 

[mwagner10702]

Hey Guys,

Considering that I am only looking for street use, my install guy is saying to just go for Bilsteins and install the original springs on the lower perch

1.) Is that enough drop for 18/19 wheels and come close to my current ride height (see pic)
2.) My thoughts are that the OEM Springs are designed to be used with only OEM shocks

Input?

1) Bilstieins on the lower perch will lower the car approximately .875". Might not be low enough for you but you will not get any rubbing.
2) Bilsteins are considerably stiffer than the OEM shocks and probably going to result in a less than ideal ride quality with the OEM springs. Take a look at the damper rates here http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Suspension

The only way (IMO) to get a compliant street ride while lowering your car is to go with coilovers such as the KWv3 that have been previously mentioned. Unfortunately this solution is costly.

 

[mwagner10702]

I currently run Koni Yellows, but it's time to replace them and the springs.

Looking to:

1.) Keep close to the same ride height
2.) Minimize tire wear (going to aim for 93 Spec alignment)
3.) Increase ride quality (knowing I will sacrifice performance)
4.) Spend 3k max (lower is always nice

Thanks everyone

Current ride height that I would like to maintain (running 18/19)

If you like what you currently have (ride, ride height, etc.), why not just replace the Konis with new. Consider pairing the Konis with the Zanardi springs. With the adjustable rebound in the Konis you can tune in some ride quality (setting the rebound at the softest setting) that is not available with the Bilsteins.

Unfortunately unless you can ride in a car that has the exact setup you are looking for it is kind of a crap shoot guessing what combination (damper / spring) will result in the best ride, ride height, etc.

 

[neuronbob]

If you are daily driving and not tracking, just do the Bilsteins on lower perch and new stock springs. Feels like stock, has just enough drop to avoid the 4x4 look, VERY compliant on the street. I thought about KWV3s because I track 1-2 times a year, but I live in Cleveland (ie $hitty roads) and for my driving to work, Bilsteins work fine. Plus, lifetime warranty, LOL.

That said, you’ve got advice above from folks who know lots more about suspension than I do. I just know what feels and works right for me, and this does.

 

[goldNSX]

Hey Guys,

Considering that I am only looking for street use, my install guy is saying to just go for Bilsteins and install the original springs on the lower perch

1.) Is that enough drop for 18/19 wheels and come close to my current ride height (see pic)
2.) My thoughts are that the OEM Springs are designed to be used with only OEM shocks

Input?

I'd go that route. You won't reach the same amount of lowering without any further modifications. But the lower you go the harsher it gets. I drove in a very low NSX with only Bilsteins on it and the ride has harsh...might worth considering if you REALLY want to sacrifice ride quality against lowering.

As your 18/19 wheels will have a larger diameter it might reduce the fender/tire gap a little bit more but hard to judge by how much.