Beta testing Enthusify as a new Classified Ad platform

[NSX Prime]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

Lud, thank you for sharing your insights. You are absolutely correct, many of us had no clue into how prolific scams have become on this site.

Fee discussion aside, one possible downside to the Enthusify plugin is that users may try to circumvent the system by contacting sellers directly in an attempt to avoid paying fees. If there was a mechanism to prevent this from happening (such as the seller's name/email being masked until a buyer confirms purchase), that might be worth considering. This is one thing that is more pertinent to an online forum site than a pure retailer like eBay or Amazon; I'm sure there are others.

That is an interesting idea, and I can see pros and cons to it.

On the pro side it really would force protection.

On the con side, I know there are a lot of local NSX groups where folks know each other personally, and it seems absurd to force an extra fee on them if they can just message their friend and do the deal locally for cash. That would be very frustrating for people, and I know a lot of deals are completed that way.

 

[RSO 34]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

You should make it mandatory for ALL marketplace users to list their full name, email and phone number or they cannot list an ad or even view one at all. That was one thing I was surprised to see in the marketplace that many other sites require. That within itself will deter many scammers. If you see someone has posted some faux name or number, DON'T BUY FROM THEM.

It really is up to the buyer to make smarter moves. I would never spend hundreds or thousands of dollars online, until I call and talk to the person selling it. It is much harder for a person to lie in voice than through text. This is when you need to ask, hey is this item stolen or what's the story behind the turbo kit. This goes for anything, even tires from big name companies. I will be on the phone to specify exactly what I need and exactly what I am paying for. Email is too impersonal when it comes to costly items that exceed a typical dinner bill. Why would anyone seemingly hand a large amount money to an account that has no face or even a voice?

Form a blacklist if need be.

Virtually all the scammed transactions had a name, phone number, email and even a "valid" paypal account. Requiring someone to list that to post an ad provides no true protection. Every Nigerian scammer has a phone, email, name and snail mail address.

And do you really think it is harder to "lie in voice" than in texts or emails? Scammers are very good at what they do and most are very proficient at conning you on the phone and even in person just as well as through emails.

There is a blacklist and it continues to grow at at alarming rate. Very few here even know the existence of many of them since they are stopped and blocked very early by observant members reporting and flagging suspicious posts.

These scams work because many do not do their due diligence but also because they are good at creating identities that at first blush appear to be legit. However, do you honestly think that if you ask a seller if the item is stolen you will get a true answer if it has been stolen?

 

[NSX Prime]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

Without disclosing "private information" affecting certain members, I wanted to at least post in support of the need for protection against the increasingly frequent scams. Although I have "publicly" assisted some members here I have been "involved" in many more that are not publicized. Needless to say, I share the concerns of our site Admin about our members being scammed and take it as a personal offense since our community is so small and close knit.

RSO_34 has indeed assisted me numerous times with these situations. If I had to pay his hourly rate for legal assistance I am quite certain I would have run up a serious 5-figure bill just in the last year. Fortunately for me and for the NSX owners who get scammed, he provides his expertise at the expense of his own personal time.

Again, another hidden cost to the current system that is very unevenly distributed: People who care deeply about the community and already do a lot for it having to regularly sacrifice their personal time to deal with these situations.

And even as many as Bob helps with, there are probably two or three times as many that I can resolve myself. So while he knows more than anyone else, he only knows first-hand a fraction of the scope of the problem.

As with all aspects of life, those who "play by the rules" necessarily incur the burden of increased costs to protect the group as a whole but such is life.

I have reached the same conclusion. I don't like it at all. It is a very frustrating and depressing conclusion to reach. But I don't see another way.

 

[NSX Prime]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

I respect your motives and ideals. I made the comment about the seductive sales pitch because this whole idea or product/service sounds very inefficient and illogical, which is what great salesman are always selling. They also like to leverage safety and security :tongue:

Thanks for the dialogue. Just FYI, I was the one actively looking for a solution to the scam situation, it wasn't Chad selling it to me. It just happened that his service was evolving in a direction I thought might ultimately be useful for a problem I was trying to solve.

Even if you had no gain at all and it was at 5%, that is still unacceptable. 3% is the threshold. Paypal knows what they are doing. They have done research and know if that number is anything higher, their volume will change dramatically.

The credit card fees alone are nearly 3%. If you look at existing escrow services they all charge more than 2% until you get into very high dollar figures, are mostly a pain in the ass to use, and have no way to directly integrate with this site.

What I feel you are getting at here is that you simply don't want to pay for a service you don't think you personally need. And from the rest of your message, that you philosophically don't think 100% of people should have to pay for a service that only 1 in 20 need. Which I can absolutely understand! It is both maddening and saddening that ultimately virtually every aspect of our society ends up with the honest majority paying the costs of dealing with the dishonest minority, as RSO_34 mentioned.

If you truly want to protect buyers, then the increased fees are definitely not going to "protect" them. The escrow services will only complicate things and make it even more expensive. More shipping routes/travel and hands that could damage or misplace various items.

I think there may be a misunderstanding of how most escrow services, including Enthusify's model, work. They don't act as a middle-man in the delivery of goods, they just hold the money. The seller ships straight to the buyer, and the buyer indicates to the escrow company whether or not the item was received OK. If the item is received OK, the escrow company releases the funds to the seller.

I am having trouble understanding why you don't think an escrow service provides any real protection to buyers. Certainly they are not perfect, but they provide a considerable level of protection from outright scams.

As for your suggestions... First, I really and sincerely appreciate that you are taking the time to make constructive suggestions to try and help. In general I think many of them might help deter some of the more casual problems where someone just didn't send a part and then blew off the buyer, but for the reasons RSO_34 outlined I am not confident they will do much to deter the recent surge in premeditated criminal activity which is what I'm really fighting here.

I would understand if you closed down the marketplace because you have had enough of the issues. Actually I wouldn't care if you chose Enthusify's pitch as-is right now either. There will always be other ways to buy or sell, if one outlet becomes inefficient.

You are exactly right, and that is why I think closing the classified section is a valid option, though certainly my last choice. There are other channels people can use. It would be a shame, but it wouldn't prevent anyone from being able to sell NSX stuff.

I respect your ideal for a 100% target, but there is going to be no such thing in the real world. 5% loss/issues is pretty damn good! It is really unfortunate that you have to deal with the negativity and clean-up, but there must come a time when you have to step back, post the disclaimer and accept it is not your responsibility, especially after you made all the safeguards. You have done your best to prevent and keep the percentage low, but it is not your fault or job to be the detective and help.

That's just it. 5% loss may be OK in some parts of the business world, but it is not OK to me, as the operator of a site for a relatively small community of fellow NSX owners. This isn't about acceptable business losses, it's about criminals targeting and ripping off members of a community I care about using a system I own and operate.

These big criminal scams (selling the same multi-thousand dollar part to as many people as would send payment) simply DID NOT EXIST on this site just two years ago. Now they are happening every couple months.

And again, the worst part is that it's increasing. Of course I'm sure it's not actually 5% - that was just an illustrative number. I can't give exact %s because I have no way to determine the number of successful transactions. But I have no reason to think the Marketplace activity has changed, yet the number of these scams was zero for all the years until about 2009/2010, and since they are occurring with ever greater frequency.

It is not in my nature to simply post a disclaimer and step back when a situation like that is not only occurring but increasing. I WILL stop it from happening on this site one way or the other. I am trying to find a solution that gives us an acceptable classified experience. If I can't do that I'll shut the classified section down, and as you said there are perfectly viable alternative ways to sell out there so it would be a shame but not the end of the world.

 

[RSO 34]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

Just to continue in trying to help. You can make an exclaimed "!" link about scammers like this very thread that is present on every page to educate or inform people to be smarter and safer. Tell buyers to voice their dilemmas and help others. Do not just assume that the buyer is legitimate. Never pay by gift because you want to bypass the 3% insurance unless you are willing to gamble. It is called a gift for a reason and people don't realize the idea of what they are doing. You just gifted this seller some sum of money. It was not a payment for good just because you said it was verbally or by email. Don't be surprised when you yield nothing after "gifting the buyer." Some people unfortunately have to learn the hard way.

I authored and posted this on July 1, 2009:

How to Protect Yourself in the Markeplace

As of this post it has been viewed 6,898 times.

During a shorter period of time the now gone "Hottest Girl Thread" was viewd over ONE MILLION times.

I have also had one of the more viral threads where I scammed a scammer and used it as a lesson to others to show how scams work:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104987

And yet people continue to get ripped off all the time. And not to say that the recent "carbon fiber" thread is a scam, I was shocked to see how many people lined up like crack addicted lemmings to take a hit on the pipe and walk off the cliff together. An anonymous new member who is not even an nsx owner posted that he had "a friend" who makes carbon fiber parts (and yet has never done an NSX part). People were falling over themselves with excitement until I did a search that took me only 10 minutes to reveal that the "manufacturer" was new business started when a marketing guy teamed up with a "tamoske-like" 23 yr old who had burned the lotus and tesla communities. Now that new venture may work out but no one else did any due diligence to see what the track record was.

There is only so much one can do to protect people from their own gullibilities and naivete..........

 

[Panjo]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

The details of how Enthusify's escrow service works are also important and I'm glad you brought up those questions and hope Chad will address them.

For this first release of the Enthusify vBulletin plugin, the escrow has three steps.

Step 1: Buyer purchases an item.
Step 2: Funds deposit to Enthusify.
Step 3: 14 days pass. Enthusify reminds the buyer via email that he/she needs to report any problems or funds will transfer.
Step 4: If the buyer does not report a problem with the transaction within 14 days of purchase, Enthusify transfers funds to the seller.

Section 11 of this page walks through our plans to resolve various kinds of disputes: http://enthusify.com/terms

During our alpha tests and pre-build surveys a number of people expressed that 14 days is too long. We choose 14 days based on a review of hundreds of transactions and an assessment of how many days were needed to complete mot transactions. A future enhancement may trigger payment transfer upon buyer and seller confirmation of satisfaction/shipping/receipt.

The Enthusify team (Chad, David, Rob, Jeff & Juan) is reading every line of this thread. We really appreciate the time everyone is taking to provide feedback. We want to provide a service that benefits members. NSXPrime installed the very first release of the plugin. There are all kinds of features, enhancements, and changes we plan to make. In order to prioritize that list we are listening to your feedback. You can find, add, and vote for elements on the product roadmap here: https://enthusify.uservoice.com/forums/163512-product-roadmap

The Enthusify team is made up of enthusiasts. The service was born out of our frustrations with commerce in forums.

 

[shawn110975]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

Lud,
My Father is the man you need to speak with, this is his field of expertise. He has been doing this for years and I think he can solve NSXPRIME's problems in the marketplace and including creating revenue for this site. with little to no effect to other members,
we have our own servers and host a number of sites already.

He has several Credit Card Merchant accounts and can proccess all of your orders, work to settle disputes and host the secure site for you. There are very tight restrictions and requirements that he must meet to be compliant with Payment Card Industry standards. I have talked with him and he understands the situation and is interested. There are transactaion fees and processing fees, but he will work with us on getting the costs way below Paypal.

as for the Marketplace we could do an Auction site, e-com site, consignments etc. maximum return for the sellers.

lets finally say bye bye to PAYPAL and Ebay.

Pm me so I can give you his infomation.

 

[docjohn]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

I still think most of you are missing Lud's point.This is not about how well the for sale section works for the 95%. It is all about how criminal the other 5% has become.Lud is dealing with his own moral obligation to the 100% of users.The for sale section was never a requirement or an obligation.Lud did it because members begged for it, and it has morphed into a very lucrative playground for criminals/and small time crooks.And all of these posts essentialy saying "tough titty" on the fools who got scammed is alarming...I say close it down,let all of you wonderful honest owners start your own for sale section outside of prime and then you can set your own morality sqelch level...have at it. What I would love to see on prime however is every vendor having status other than "registered user"

 

[UnhuZ]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

Lud,

Actually, the workload with the rest of the site has been pretty steady for about the last six years, and can mostly be attended to at my convenience.

well... i think it's not a question of "where" you spend your time on, but you spend it, and wherever you spend it, it's a lot of time and you will need help.

Sure. I can't prevent all wrongs. But consider what you are saying - a system where the default is protection and people have to actively work around that, versus what we have now where the default is that most buyers are largely at risk. That is a huge difference.

it may be, but that does not stop scammers... ebay with all their protection it is one of the most used tool by scammers... and they win, because most of the times it comes down to the buyer's fault, because they don't read the whole description, or this or that.. If ebay can't stop scams, do you think this solution will??
I keep thinking that it does more harm than good to the community.

Your own experience provides the counter-example to the idea that PayPal's protection is sufficient!

This is the first time I have heard of your situation so I'm sorry to hear it happened to you, and glad to hear you were only taken for $350. Many people are being taken for 10 and 20 times that amount. And I can assure you, PayPal protection is not sufficient because a bunch of people have lost substantial money. The exact reasons are varied but you provided a perfect example from your case.

But where did i said that i wasn't to blaim ?! i was scammed in part because of me... i knew the rules

And I'm sure most of them are more careful the next time too, but that's a hell of an expensive lesson, and I think a better designed system can prevent a lot of them, so I intend to do something about it.

obviously!! after we got a burn, it's hard for it to happen again... the problem here is that i doubt this is a "better designed system".

And i agree... something must be done about it, but not this.... i think if this end up being a solution, there are a lot more that can be done until then...

I am extremely skeptical for the reasons I stated. And again I'll use your own experience as a counter-example: I just looked up the account you said ripped you off. Before the ad that resulted in your loss: He had been a member for 2.5 years, had dozens of posts, appears to have been an NSX owner, and even had a 100% positive iTrader rating with 4 previous deals! There is no screen I can implement that is going to keep someone like that out and let legitimate people in.

yeap... he was a owner, then he probably sold his NSX and thought that maybe he should go out pocketing the max he could.... you can't fight that, how the hell can you guess that a regular member remembers to scam out of the blue?

This proposed solution sounds good but just doesn't work in real life, and that is why I've previously dismissed it after looking at the real patterns of abuse and finding it won't really prevent them.

it does work... and you will say that to every solution just because there is NO SOLUTION anywhere to solve 100% of the cases... there will be always a small % that you can't do anything about it... the question here is if you are willing to "kill" one huge part of the community so to discover later that it didn't solve the problem, because it won't

I don't think Buyers need any extra care, and works fine as it is.

I do not agree with the assessment that it works fine as is, and I will not continue to operate it as is. I thought I had made that clear.

maybe i didn't explained myself correctly... i was talking about the buyer side of the business.... you can limit the sellers from selling, but i don't see how/why you would limit the buyers from buying (unless the Enthusify tool goes ahead)

Step 4: If the buyer does not report a problem with the transaction within 14 days of purchase, Enthusify transfers funds to the seller.

This whole issue appeared here because buyers are clueless... don't you think that a good number of them will "forget" that they only have 14 days to complain?? and after that, the buyer don't receive any package and talks to you and you already transfered the funds to the seller/scammer.

During our alpha tests and pre-build surveys a number of people expressed that 14 days is too long. We choose 14 days based on a review of hundreds of transactions and an assessment of how many days were needed to complete mot transactions. A future enhancement may trigger payment transfer upon buyer and seller confirmation of satisfaction/shipping/receipt.

It seems that you have to look outside of US... 14 days is ULTRA short for international shipping... there are shippings that can take up to a month, not counting on customs warehouses delays and stuff. So this makes me thing that:

- Out of US sellers/buyers are SOL with this sytem in the worst case scenario
- This 14 days is a good tool for the scammers to use giveing the excuse of "shipping delays" to skip this deadline.


What seems that you Lud and Bob are missing here is that no matter what you do, it just isn't in your hands to do what only the buyers themselves can do.

Throwing this type of services to the problem will only make the whole buying/selling experience unpleasent for all... it's like throwing money, by buying parts, to solve a car problem, but here, eventually the problem will be fixed.

 

[NSX Prime]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

Lud,
My Father is the man you need to speak with, this is his field of expertise. He has been doing this for years and I think he can solve NSXPRIME's problems in the marketplace and including creating revenue for this site. with little to no effect to other members,
we have our own servers and host a number of sites already.

He has several Credit Card Merchant accounts and can proccess all of your orders, work to settle disputes and host the secure site for you. There are very tight restrictions and requirements that he must meet to be compliant with Payment Card Industry standards. I have talked with him and he understands the situation and is interested. There are transactaion fees and processing fees, but he will work with us on getting the costs way below Paypal.

as for the Marketplace we could do an Auction site, e-com site, consignments etc. maximum return for the sellers.

lets finally say bye bye to PAYPAL and Ebay.

Pm me so I can give you his infomation.

Shawn, I always love your enthusiasm and ambition. You have more of both than some entire towns!

I don't know of a way to accept credit cards, and cover the costs of developing a platform, and provide an escrow service, for a fee lower than PayPal. If you can do it then yeah you will probably have a good business opportunity. The only real way would probably be to either create or partner with an alternative payment system like Dwolla to sidestep the credit card fees. Then you might have enough breathing room to make some money on the float.

Anyway, that is really just some aimless brainstorming - if I wanted to build this platform, I would have either done it myself or asked Chad if I could join his company in some capacity. It's just not a project I want right now - I have other projects I'm involved with and finite time. If you / your dad want to build it then I'd love to have a look when it's ready for beta testing, so let me know if you get it going.

 

[UnhuZ]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

John,

I still think most of you are missing Lud's point.This is not about how well the for sale section works for the 95%. It is all about how criminal the other 5% has become.Lud is dealing with his own moral obligation to the 100% of users.

i understand that, but it's impossible to remove scams completly, no matter what is done, besides removing the marketplace entirely.

The thing here is to ruin the experience for 95% in favour of TRYING to protect 5%.... i repear "TRYING", because it isn't possible to address this fully.

The for sale section was never a requirement or an obligation.Lud did it because members begged for it, and it has morphed into a very lucrative playground for criminals/and small time crooks. And all of these posts essentialy saying "tough titty" on the fools who got scammed is alarming...I say close it down,let all of you wonderful honest owners start your own for sale section outside of prime and then you can set your own morality sqelch level...have at it. What I would love to see on prime however is every vendor having status other than "registered user"

Sorry but that is just turning your back on things by saying: Go elsewhere!
We are in this community because we like it, if not, we would be elsewhere. We all are this community... if we all go elsewhere what will be the point ?!

Lud needs to look at this from a distance and see that he isn't omnipotent or omnipresent to solve everything, all he can do is minimize the problem, or remove it.... not solving it.

Nuno

 

[HIJACKER]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

For this first release of the Enthusify vBulletin plugin, the escrow has three steps.

Step 1: Buyer purchases an item.
Step 2: Funds deposit to Enthusify.
Step 3: 14 days pass. Enthusify reminds the buyer via email that he/she needs to report any problems or funds will transfer.
Step 4: If the buyer does not report a problem with the transaction within 14 days of purchase, Enthusify transfers funds to the seller.

Section 11 of this page walks through our plans to resolve various kinds of disputes: http://enthusify.com/terms

During our alpha tests and pre-build surveys a number of people expressed that 14 days is too long. We choose 14 days based on a review of hundreds of transactions and an assessment of how many days were needed to complete mot transactions. A future enhancement may trigger payment transfer upon buyer and seller confirmation of satisfaction/shipping/receipt.

The Enthusify team (Chad, David, Rob, Jeff & Juan) is reading every line of this thread. We really appreciate the time everyone is taking to provide feedback. We want to provide a service that benefits members. NSXPrime installed the very first release of the plugin. There are all kinds of features, enhancements, and changes we plan to make. In order to prioritize that list we are listening to your feedback. You can find, add, and vote for elements on the product roadmap here: https://enthusify.uservoice.com/forums/163512-product-roadmap

The Enthusify team is made up of enthusiasts. The service was born out of our frustrations with commerce in forums.

So explain to me how this system doesn't prevent a flip where instead of 5% of buyers being screwed over, that now 5% of sellers could be screwed over? Who's to say a buyer doesn't report a fraudulent issue with a product (that is completely ok) and withholding the escrow from being deposited to the seller? I see the burden and risk now being flipped to the seller, along with higher fees to the seller. Yes, you're achieving seller protection, but you're also allowing buyer opportunity to scam funds and a product.

In my honest opinion, a message board holds absolutely no responsibility or liability for the transactions that buyers/sellers choose to make. I feel that the administration should back out of it completely and allow users to do business at their own risk. Creating better ways to organize forums, or items, or even setting some basic rules and parameters are one thing, but taking over the process sounds like "big Government" if you ask me, and never works. Every system has flaws, this proposed system has plenty of loopholes as well.

 

[docjohn]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

What seems that you Lud and Bob are missing here is that no matter what you do, it just isn't in your hands to do what only the buyers themselves can do.

You are not comprehending what Lud and Bob are saying,because you want this wonderful free section to continue..........Lud feels it is in his hands, and he is right, his site his sandbox...At this point in time he feels the enthusify solution is worth a beta......that works a hell of alot better than the alternative of etoh/bathsalts/ECT....or whatever other forms of escape from reality you would Like the admins to take.

 

[HIJACKER]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

Step 1: Buyer purchases an item.
Step 2: Funds deposit to Enthusify.
Step 3: 14 days pass. Enthusify reminds the buyer via email that he/she needs to report any problems or funds will transfer.
Step 4: If the buyer does not report a problem with the transaction within 14 days of purchase, Enthusify transfers funds to the seller.

Can you please elaborate in great detail on these steps?

i.e. How do they purchase an item? What funds are deposited, just the asking price, or asking price and shipping, etc? What are the fees calculated off of? How does this work for International transactions, since they can take more than 14 days? How does your escrow services legally protect International buyers? What happens if the buyer reports a problem? Who has the burden of proof? How is a decision made on who is right or wrong? Etc...

 

[shawn110975]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

thanks Lud, I will see if we can get a beta site for you.

as for stolen parts being sold there are a few good ideas we have to help prevent this. if you talk to my father for 2 minutes and hear what he has to say you will jump up and down.

let me know you would be surprised at the connections we have in the I.T. world LOL

 

[docjohn]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

Sorry but that is just turning your back on things by saying: Go elsewhere!
We are in this community because we like it, if not, we would be elsewhere. We all are this community... if we all go elsewhere what will be the point ?!

Lud needs to look at this from a distance and see that he isn't omnipotent or omnipresent to solve everything, all he can do is minimize the problem, or remove it.... not solving it.

Nuno

Do you really think that the community and nsx owners in general exist/and or are defined by the for sale section on prime? Is The mission statement of prime " to be able to sell nsx parts"....

 

[PHOEN$X]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

I still think most of you are missing Lud's point.This is not about how well the for sale section works for the 95%. It is all about how criminal the other 5% has become.Lud is dealing with his own moral obligation to the 100% of users.The for sale section was never a requirement or an obligation.Lud did it because members begged for it, and it has morphed into a very lucrative playground for criminals/and small time crooks.And all of these posts essentialy saying "tough titty" on the fools who got scammed is alarming...

Agreed. Are NSX owners more concerned about keeping more wad in their wallets than protecting the community as a whole? If we were in Lud's shoes, would the majority of us truly be OK with the statistical number of fellow members getting scammed? What if it was our own family and friends getting ripped off? Please try to see things from Lud's perspective.

The way the marketplace is set up right now, I view it like craigslist. It's up to the buyers to protect themselves, and Lud wants to change it to be more like eBay where there are more protection mechanisms. I can totally understand and respect that. Right now, unless I personally know, or have had significant interaction with a seller, I am reluctant to make major purchases (more than a couple hundred dollars) from someone, and NEVER with the PayPal gift option. But that's just me, and I realize I am more internet savvy than a lot of non-geeks.

Lud - just thinking aloud here, but perhaps the existing marketplace could be used for small ticket items so that people can still buy/sell cheap stuff without the mental "hit" of what 10% is costing them (which is nothing really, but reaction here makes people think otherwise). And then, once an item exceeds a certain threshold, the seller will be forced to use Enthusify (after a more reasonable fee structure is established). That way, if people do get scammed, it will be more likely for low cost items rather than big ticket items, and you don't have to feel the urgency of having to invest so much time investigating transactions.

Whatever the outcome, I want you to know that I appreciate and support your efforts for the NSX community. Thank you!

 

[NSX Prime]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

i understand that, but it's impossible to remove scams completly, no matter what is done, besides removing the marketplace entirely.

The thing here is to ruin the experience for 95% in favour of TRYING to protect 5%.... i repear "TRYING", because it isn't possible to address this fully.

You are stuck on this idea that if it's not a 100% solution it's nothing. Which is the same thing you said about me dismissing various other ideas. Except I don't dismiss them because they are short of 100% solutions, I dismiss them because they don't even address the core patterns I have seen with this problem. Just to clarify, I don't expect anything to result in a 100% trouble free Internet marketplace.

What seems that you Lud and Bob are missing here is that no matter what you do, it just isn't in your hands to do what only the buyers themselves can do.

Nuno, we seem to have a fundamental philosophical disagreement. Not the first time that has happened, as I recall ;-)

To me the difference between a system that DEFAULTS to provide a reasonable level of safety and one that DEFAULTS to risk is huge. In the past it wasn't a big deal because the environment was fairly safe. But now, in the current environment, I can't continue to operate one that defaults to risk in good conscience. I don't know what else to say.

 

[RSO 34]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

In my honest opinion, a message board holds absolutely no responsibility or liability for the transactions that buyers/sellers choose to make. I feel that the administration should back out of it completely and allow users to do business at their own risk.

As of right now Prime "gains nothing" from a free marketplace (other than perhaps a nominal sum from ad clicks - I say nominal since i am here a lot and can say I have never clicked on an ad (sorry lud....). However, whenever someone gets ripped off there is a cry for help made to the site and the Admin despite the clearly stated "caveat emptor" policy.

Unlike many interweb sites, this one has a "caring owner" as well as a handful of volunteers around to try to make it a mature, worthwhile and "safe" forum for all. Someone made a reference to people taking up arms and starting a "competing" site but I say that would never happen because:

1. It requires your personal time
2. It requires your own personal efforts to stay on top of it
3. It requires your own money to fund it
4. Few "thank you" when it runs well but complaints are loud and frequent when something goes awry.
5. Oftentimes you are asked to bail someone out of a bad transaction caused at least in part by their own failure to perform due diligence.

And

6. It looks easier than it is.

I am sure lud would be thrilled to see someone take on that responsibility.

Bueller? Bueller? Anyone? Anyone?......

 

[UnhuZ]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

Hi,

You are not comprehending what Lud and Bob are saying,because you want this wonderful free section to continue.

clearly you didn't read any of what i said... i don't want this section the continue free... i think it should be paid with a membership ... and there are suggestions that could filter more scammers and bring those 5% down...

Lud feels it is in his hands, and he is right, his site his sandbox...

I read from time to time someone arrogantly saying that... but i'm yet to see Lud himself having that attitude... I have him in the highest of considerations and i don't think i will ever see that in/through him

Although i don't agree to 100% of his decisions, i clearly agree with more then 95% :biggrin::biggrin:

What i'm saying here is that while this is in fact his sandbox, he never gave me the feeling that i shouldn't question, suggest whatever i feel like... i never disrespected him or anyone here, altough i was very harsh on some occasions, and i think that in a debate, everything can be discussed with respect.

At this point in time he feels the enthusify solution is worth a beta......that works a hell of alot better than the alternative of etoh/bathsalts/ECT....or whatever other forms of escape from reality you would Like the admins to take.

so, telling that there is no 100% success in this is "escape from reality" but getting 100% is real ?!

Nuno

 

[NSX Prime]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

OK, time for phase two of this thread.

I feel at this point I've made my position clear: Either I will find a way to make the classified section safer, or I will close it. The "buyer beware" approach was generally OK for years, but the environment has changed so it is no longer personally acceptable to me to operate that way. I'm not going to argue it back and forth.

Please use the rest of this thread to evaluate the Enthusify platform and make suggestions as to how it can be improved to possibly solve this problem in a useful way, or present alternatives I can integrate into the website somehow.

For example, the comments about the escrow period for international transactions and the other questions people are asking about the details of the escrow / dispute process are great. THAT kind of stuff is the point of this thread!

My hope is that the Enthusify platform can help, so do me a favor and let's see if this solution can work for us with more good questions and requests for changes / features / fee modifications. If not, let's move on to try and identify another candidate.

 

[shawn110975]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

me and my father will step up to the plate.

we can create a safe site, handle credit card verifications
protect buyers from fraud/scams etc.

create a user friendly marketplace, with revenue generating for Prime.

or consignment you send me the parts you have extra when it sells we send you the cash.

we are willing to do this

 

[docjohn]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

me and my father will step up to the plate.

we can create a safe site, handle credit card verifications
protect buyers from fraud/scams etc.

create a user friendly marketplace, with revenue generating for Prime.

or consignment you send me the parts you have extra when it sells we send you the cash.

we are willing to do this

please don't name your site ........Shawnify:biggrin:

 

[UnhuZ]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

Hi,

You are stuck on this idea that if it's not a 100% solution it's nothing. Which is the same thing you said about me dismissing various other ideas. Except I don't dismiss them because they are short of 100% solutions, I dismiss them because they don't even address the core patterns I have seen with this problem. Just to clarify, I don't expect anything to result in a 100% trouble free Internet marketplace.

Yeap... i agree... let's drop this whole 100% thing :biggrin:

Nuno, we seem to have a fundamental philosophical disagreement. Not the first time that has happened, as I recall ;-)

that conclusion only happens when we discuss a theme beyonde beliefe... and i like to discuss...debate... but i think i agree with you more than i show :wink:

To me the difference between a system that DEFAULTS to provide a reasonable level of safety and one that DEFAULTS to risk is huge. In the past it wasn't a big deal because the environment was fairly safe. But now, in the current environment, I can't continue to operate one that defaults to risk in good conscience. I don't know what else to say.

i understand that, and i agree, but what i question here is the use of a third party vs debating on a more restrictive set of rules and conditions using the current platform.

What i'm also concearned is the sacrifice of the majority trying to protect the minority.... and please don't read this as if i was saying "screw the minority", i'm far from thinking that.

I do agree with your concerns about the escrow period for international transactions. It needs to be able to cover a longer period for those.

Yeap... as you understand, i have a big experience in this case, with many different carriers and origins.

Thanks,
Nuno

 

[UnhuZ]

Re: Beta testing Enthusify as a new Marketplace platform

Hi,

please don't name your site ........Shawnify:biggrin:

can't help myself: AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH

Nuno