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Comptechs Best NSX not near good enough (C&D)

Originally posted by Jimbo:
"...Unlike the Z, the last-gen RX-7 finally did come out as a lighter, track-ready sports car..."

Actually the latest (and therefore last) generation Z car has come out in a version that's a lighter, track-ready sports car.

No, it's not out yet. Another few weeks, I believe. But I'll clean up the wording I used to indicate that I wasn't referring to the new Z.

And, while there is a version of the 350Z that is indeed track-ready - for which Nissan should be commended - the new version is not particularly light in weight, tipping the scales at 3225 pounds. By way of comparison, the last-gen RX-7 was around 2800.

Originally posted by Jimbo:
I think the new Z is much lighter than the previous generation of ZX.

That's true; the last 300ZX Turbo, in '96, was 3502 pounds.

Originally posted by Jimbo:
As far as a NSX running circles around the Z...I guess that remains to be seen. It might be closer than we think.

From what I've read, I think it may indeed be fairly close in performance to the NSX; a little more power, equal in weight to the NSX-T but heavier than the coupes. I have yet to see a road test that describes how it behaves though. I'm looking forward to it with hopeful expectations (although I don't intend to buy one).

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 14 August 2002).]
 
Nissan designed the 350 Track model w/ the Porsche Boxster S in mind; personally, I would expect performance and handling to rival the Boxster S. The whole idea is Boxster S performance, but at half the price.
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Unfortunately, from what I've seen so far, some who have pre-ordered the Track model have ordered it thinking it's the top-of-the-line model since it's the most expensive. Definitely not that Nissan wanted.

Furthermore (if anybody is curious)... when the ZX (not Z) came out, Nissan's goal was to uproot the Corvette. However, this last generation ZX was benchmarked against the Porsche 944 Turbo for handling and Corvette C4 for performance. I guess it's no surprise that they move onto the Boxster S for performance and handling.

Michael.


[This message has been edited by mdoan300 (edited 15 August 2002).]
 
Originally posted by ALLAN:
80k these days will buy you a very nice 355gts, sometimes with a few dollars to spare. .

Allan, for my info as a fan of this car, can they really be purchased for that ? Am I looking in the wrong place for this type of pricing. I think it might be best to post your reply Off Topic since this ? isn't following this post. Thanks in advance.
 
Originally posted by ALLAN:
a new one for 80k? never. a used one for 30k?absolutely.

I think it's worth noting that many people prefer buying new, while other people prefer buying used. The reasons are obvious; new cars are perfect and come with warranties, while used cars are less expensive. Some owners might only consider a new car, and look at whether the NSX is worth it in that context, compared to other new cars on the market. ALLAN might think that no new car is worth the money, because he insists on the value proposition inherent in used cars.

IMO it's pointless for someone who buys only used cars to say that a new NSX isn't worth it compared with a used NSX; it's mixing apples and oranges, since a used car ALWAYS costs less than a new one. The value of a new NSX should be evaluated against other new cars on the market, not against used cars.

I guess the question should be rephrased as, "If you had up to $80K to spend on a NEW car, would you buy an NSX?"
 
(Gerry's nsx, my favorite nsx out there by the way, he's supposed to be 550hp and he got
smoked by a z06 with from what i heard,?????)I am Gerry and I can Insure you that no car that I have ever raced against has ever came close to staying with my car, I would like to who gave you that info, Tell them to take their ZO6 to the track and we will see what's really the truth. My car runs 11's at the strip with street tires and it has the MPH to run mid 10's so if I was to race any car from a roll on the street, the car will need to run about the same MPH to even stay in the game.
 
I think the type of buyer the NSX attracts is a sophisticated, educated, and well informed buyer. Value means a lot to us as does reliablity. Im sure we all could have afforded a 996, zo6, M5, etc, but in the end we chose the NSX. The hard part for us all in buying a new 2002 290 hp NSX, is that in our hearts, we ALL know its the damn same car as a 1997 (basically) We all know how reliable the NSX is, so why shell out 40,000+ extra dollars to buy the new model, when a 97+ model is the same and just as reliable as a 2002?


How does Acura intend to sell more cars if it is loyal base of existing clients already have them. I know tons of people who continuously upgrade their porshces and M3s simply becuase their are marked improvements. By selling these new cars, their used car maket increases, and there by creates more potential buyers for future cars in their prespective marques.

Acura now has 11,000+ owners in the states who adore their NSXs and just WAITING to upgrade to something WORTH upgrading to. But till something comes out that makes me think my NSX just doesnt cut it anymore... Ill stick to my '94.
 
Originally posted by ERicincal:
why shell out 40,000+ extra dollars to buy the new model, when a 97+ model is the same and just as reliable as a 2002?

(a) Some people prefer to buy new cars. (b) the difference is closer to $25K ($50K vs $75K).

Originally posted by ERicincal:
Acura now has 11,000+ owners in the states who adore their NSXs

No, there are around 8,000.
 
Originally posted by nsxtasy:
I rather doubt the $75K story for a 2002. But I bet you could find a new 2001 for that price, or a new 2002 for $85K now, or for $83K if you wait another month or two.
There are at least 2 2002 cars available for $75K. One is the silver/onyx at Hopkins Acura.
 
Originally posted by nsxtasy:
I wish Car and Driver had used Gerry's NSX in their test.
or David's car (also with Comptech wide-body)... in either case, single-turbo seems to be the ticket for high-hp applications.

Guys -- get ready for next year
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hey gerry, wasnt trying to insult your car. that is my favorite nsx, and i know its very fast! heard you ran an 11.50@125, or something like that. my point was only to say that after modding an nsx, it is relatively easy to mod any of the other competitors out there. there is a video of you racing this z06. i saw it. i believe it is on racingflix.com . it is called z06vsturbonsx. the vette is owned by a guy named z06sick. i think this is the video, but for some reason i cant open it again. i saw it on some other forum originally.
 
tom larkins, yes, you can buy earlier model 355gts's for under 80k. check ebay. 95-96 spiders can be had for 90-95,000. call dealers, check around. they are out there.
 
Originally posted by ALLAN:
there is a video of you racing this z06. i saw it. i believe it is on racingflix.com . it is called z06vsturbonsx. .

Allan, while you are right about the video, I don't think that is Gerry's car. It says vs. NSX Twin Turbo.. most likely the Bell TT kit. Gerry is making A LOT more power than that.
 
no because in the forum i saw it on they made reference to the pics of gerry car on his site. again, who knows what happened. in this case though, i can honestly say id rather have gerrys car regardless of which is faster.
 
If I had $90k to buy any amount of cars, I would not buy the new NSX. It's because I'd like to have more toys. I would definitely get a used one, and use the rest for a Viper or 911TT (assuming I also have my current daily driver).

Now the question Ken poses, if you had $90k (and the left over money you didn't get to keep) to spend on a NEW car (assuming again I don't need a daily driver), I would most likely buy a new NSX. I would go test drive a the new Viper and maybe a CLK55. All other cars I would consider would be out of the price range.
 
This is starting to sound like how the owners of Ferraris and other exotics have to justify themselves to a ricer when a ricer beats them. Heck I would never spend $90,000 on a new NSX when you can have a 97-2001 for significantly less. And IMO I think the NSX took a turn for the worst in the looks department. I love pop up lights. That said I would never buy a new car EVER. Let someone else take the hit the minute they roll out of the showroom. I truly think that is Honda doesn't do anything to improve teh NSX it will be discontinued. Yes it is an 11 year old design but it still hangs in there with the greats. Would I buy one for 30,000? You bet ya and I did. I don't think for the money or the performance it puts out it is actually worth more than that. The NSX is a great all around car and at one point in time it could have been one of the best, but times have changed and so have cars. I love my NSX and will not trade it but I don't think it's the best car out there, no matter the nos. it posts. Maybe, like Allan, I am biased as well, but after driving a Lotus, 2 Ferraris, the NSX really feels plain to me. THat is no put down on the NSX it is just that the other cars offer so much more.
 
Originally posted by Gerry Johnson:
... I am Gerry and I can Insure you that no car that I have ever raced against has ever came close to staying with my car so if I was to race any car from a roll on the street, the car will need to run about the same MPH to even stay in the game.

I'm proud to say I have been smoked by Gerry's NSX numerous times from a roll. That said, it could have been a lot worse.

Download the trailer for "Apotheosis" and you can catch a glimpse of one such encounter at 0:57 in the footage.

http://www.mr2faq.com/Apotheosis.mov

-- DavidV
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www.boostedgroup.com




[This message has been edited by BoostedMR2 (edited 15 August 2002).]
 
One aspect that has not been mentioned yet is the long-term, track proven reliability of these setups. You can state with a high degree of certainty that the Comptech NSX could be tracked every weekend for a year and would remain dependable. Many comptech supercharged vehicles have been campaigned for years and have proven themselves. This can not be said of near any other setup aside from the GruppeM unit. The BellTT kit has quite a number of reports of damaged motors and poor reliability when run very hard and for long periods of time at the track. Although it may have happened, I don't know of any BellTT NSXs that have been tracked regularly and driven hard, year after year with minimal problems.

The point I am making is in regards to the other vehicles in the test article. How many of these vehicles would withstand an endurance race or continuous flogging on a monthly basis? At the end of 24 hours that Comptech NSX would be one of the top finishers because the majority of the other vehicles would be a DNF. Those high HP motors are being pushed to their limits just as a BellTT NSX on a stock motor. I don't believe the majority of the vehicles in that test are robust enough to complete a competitive endurance race without failing, let alone a season long campaign of any kind. That is why many refer to these kinds of arguments, even when based on factual numbers from a reliable source, as benchracing. It may show who will win a stoplight race or a quick, couple sprints around the track, but does nothing to forecast the results of a long-term campaign.

This is what defines Comptech in my eyes- race proven reliability. The most important part of a great race car is that it finishes the race. It doesn't matter how fast you can lap a track once or twice, how fast you can run the 1/4 mile or the numbers you post on the skidpad. When you DNF, you lose. Comptech was never about the highest HP, fastest car, or best numbers. For occasional track use and street driving all of these results are significant. The Comptech NSX is not the winner. However, in a competitive race, all of these numbers and arguments are nothing but benchracing fluff.

IMO, the Comptech NSX is completely out of it's element in this test. Comptech is not about high HP and numbers. Again, Comptech is about 'race proven reliability.' If you plan to show off on the street, Comptech is NOT the answer. A single turbo will make you very happy. If I had to choose a vehicle to campaign from this test it would be the Comptech NSX, the stock Z06 and the stock Porsche. NONE of the other cars would even be in consideration. Their chance of failing before the end of a race is enormous due to their extreme power and the stress it puts on the rest of the vehicle. Take the BBSC NSX that ran in the OTC recently. Balance and Reliability- result- no DNF and great finish. The car did not need 800HP to do so.


Let's change the test a bit. How about we enter all of the cars, as provided in the test, in a season long NASA or SCCA racing series. The same drivers can campaign the cars. At the end of the season, let us see where that Comptech NSX places after the majority of the vehicles DNF half way through the campaign with blown motors and broken suspension pieces. I'll say it again, Comptech is not about posting numbers. They are about winning races which is done through BALANCE and RELIABILITY, not power and numbers. Look at various racing series and the answer is clear. The winner is almost exclusively the car with best BALANCE of performance and reliability- not the extreme of either. Great driver + Broken race car = DNF.

This argument even holds true for drag racing. Do you think what a car can post once or twice matters? The fastest car that LASTS through the series wins. What good is your 8 second car, faster than all the 9 second competition, when it breaks after 2 runs. You still lose.

I would LOVE to see a REAL test. Which magazine would have the forsight and the balls to create a test like this? Something that truly tests the supposed race cars in a season long comparison throughout various US tracks. Imagine the attention a test like this could garner. Every issue could have a monthly update of race results and stories which would result in repeat buyers for the magazine. The first mag to do so would have at least one lifetime subscription from me, guaranteed. All of these numerical arguments and tests are fun for gits and shiggles, but they have a marginal bearing on the outcome of an actual race. Why argue about it?

Anyone can make a car go fast once or twice... maybe even for a weekend. Many of the vehicles in the test fall into this category. It takes a great tuner with experience to build a truly balanced car that will outlast the competition; that perfect blend of performance and reliability that wins championshiops- not just races. IMO, the Comptech NSX has no place in this test. The same can be said for the other cars. They would have absolutely no place in a true, season long competition because they are not built for that purpose.

So do you want to win the race or the championship?

__________________
end essay
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[This message has been edited by ilya (edited 15 August 2002).]
 
Originally posted by Ag NSX:
If I had $90k to buy any amount of cars, I would not buy the new NSX. It's because I'd like to have more toys.

I'd have to agree with Ag (silver) NSX here
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For $90k, I would buy a '97 NSX, spend some on a single turbo, and then buy another toy car with the remaining funds.

I hate to say it but I would not spend $90k on a new NSX. But that's just my opinion.
 
Hi every body!

I agree with Ilya and this is in fact one of the deep reasons explaining the NSX excellence ( and in a certain way Honda's approach in the process of improving the NSX ).

This also one of the reason why the NSX used to be considered as the world best sport car and continues to stand with actual best.

Congratulation for this very good article and I would also like to see that kind of test in magazines, not only for these high strung babies but also for stock cars.

We could be very surprised!

BUT they will never do that because I am almost shure that lots of exotic makers wouldn't like the conclusion of such a test.

I also believe that the NSX could easily shine in that kind of competition.

Honestly, do you think on long term ( read over an entire season ) that a 360 Modena could win over an NSX? For sure not the F1 !

A Z06? A Diablo? A Viper? ( strangely this would be my best pick against the NSX! Am I dreaming? Don't know about the Z06's reliability... )

I'd like to read your opinions on that.


There will always be faster guys with cheaper cars, BUT will you enter in his game of spending more time fixing and changing things ( not say loosing $$$ )?

I know and I have seen lots of your so called "ricers" ( I'm from Montréal ) and their "life story" is always the same: I broke my engine, I have to fix this, ....You will see I'm gonna beat you next time!

Having an NSX is also buying a trouble free situation...

A friend of mine has a 94 Civic with B16 GSR engine with mods ( OVER 180 hp at this time ).

Wow! He was not so killed by me in the 0-60 range but a few weeks later it ended in a major engine break!!! Always the same story!

I heard that he is now putting more than 220 hp in it and posting in the low 13 for 1/4.

When it is going to break again? I don't want to be cruel but I know that it is only a matter of time!


Originally posted by ilya:
One aspect that has not been mentioned yet is the long-term, track proven reliability of these setups.


When you DNF, you lose.


This argument even holds true for drag racing.

I would LOVE to see a REAL test. Which magazine would have the forsight and the balls to create a test like this?

Me too! We could suggest them!

You have my vote Ilya!

Regards every body!

effer
 
Originally posted by NetViper:
Allan, while you are right about the video, I don't think that is Gerry's car. It says vs. NSX Twin Turbo.. most likely the Bell TT kit. Gerry is making A LOT more power than that.

That was not me or my car in the video you might have seen. Allen I didn't take it as an insult, however it is a bit disturbing to find out that someone has the thought that my NSX was beat by a ZO6.
I do not have a big brake pakage on my car, but in the performance end that requires HP I would be there with the best of them.
 
Originally posted by bill92nsx:
Heck I would never spend $90,000 on a new NSX when you can have a 97-2001 for significantly less.

Originally posted by 8000RPM:
For $90k, I would buy a '97 NSX, spend some on a single turbo, and then buy another toy car with the remaining funds.

I hate to say it but I would not spend $90k on a new NSX.

I don't think either one of you would spend $90K on any new car, because you both prefer the value proposition of used cars over the advantages of new cars. So the fact that you wouldn't spend it on a new NSX doesn't really say much at all about the NSX.
 
but in the performance end that requires HP I would be there with the best of them.[/B]

Gerry,

Can you give us a rough estimate of what it would cost to get similar results that you have with a Turbo? Is it close to a CTSC? I am sure someone has asked that before, but I can't recall.

the M3 CSL is arriving soon, and for $60K you'll have a state of the art car capable of matching/exceeding even the new NSX-R without hesitation. For $40K less cash. So why even have this argument?
I hope the engines don't explode in those too!

This thread is shaping up nicely.. It is the most posts I have seen in a while! go me!
 
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