I'll excuse this transgression as well.
Simple test: while in China, do a Google Image Search for "Tiananmen Square".
If you don't see any images of "The Tank Man", you'll understand what the problem with China is. It's not about the money...
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Does China deserve to host the olympics?
- Thread starter fullracehonda
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Simple test: while in China, do a Google Image Search for "Tiananmen Square".
If you don't see any images of "The Tank Man", you'll understand what the problem with China is. It's not about the money...
It's "Tiananmen Square." not "Tiananmen Square".
Same thing with "The Tank Man", versus "The Tank Man."
Ur excused twice....
And I use internet style.... a new style of short-handing.
I agree with the UK style more.
Too bad they don't celebrate 4th of July there....
I agree with the UK style more.
Too bad they don't celebrate 4th of July there....
Grammar flames aside, what do you think of my point?
fatmans, i dont need your bashing, i like the educated responses better,
you and i are not freinds, we are not internet freinds, you are not good enough to be on my buddylist, and will never make it on my myspace freinds, your gto is not the greatet thing in the world, you dont smoke the sh!t out of everything on the road, i pwnd you in the wrecked elise thread, and i pwnd you in the nsx vs e55 thread, game over, you = 0, me = +2
and just fyi: china has something like 1.3 trillion dollars in surplus,
you and i are not freinds, we are not internet freinds, you are not good enough to be on my buddylist, and will never make it on my myspace freinds, your gto is not the greatet thing in the world, you dont smoke the sh!t out of everything on the road, i pwnd you in the wrecked elise thread, and i pwnd you in the nsx vs e55 thread, game over, you = 0, me = +2
and just fyi: china has something like 1.3 trillion dollars in surplus,
This is what happen when some one decides to answer a single question from a series of discussion and couldn't figure out how the discussion came about. How about let the other party answer the question? Or go back and read the entire discussion before jumping in to the party?
In the US constitution, Freedom of speech has its limits. There certain things you CANNOT say or print publicly without scrutiny.
The current Chinese censorship is nothing like the past. You cannot do certain things because of social value.
When PeterM used "sex shop" as an example regarding how little selections they have, he did not put in the consideration maybe most of the sex related stuff we are accustomed to may NOT be acceptable socially over in China.
It's like Vancehu saying, I can't believe how behind the US sex shops are when compare to the one in Amsterdam/Germany/France because their version of freedom of speech has more "freedom of speech" in it, which allows them to have more F..K up sex toys.
BUT I am glad you agree with me, and those who have the common sense to understand how to separate politics and sporting event.:wink:
Think of the word accountability. When people behave, less social related issues exist.
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Regarding the sex shop/pornography/prostitution:
One of the few things Mao did that some may look upon as "good" is he outlawed prostitution/pornography/etc. and was a strong proponent of women's rights.
During his rule, there were virtually no brothels in mainland China (although I am sure some black market shops existed).
It wasn't until Deng Xiao-ping came into power and opened up China's economy to more capitalistic principles that these things came back. Although I have heard it is not as widespread.
BTW: I have to re-iterate that I think Mao was a complete failure. I am just mentioning this as purely objective fact. I am in no way supporting him or validating him.
One of the few things Mao did that some may look upon as "good" is he outlawed prostitution/pornography/etc. and was a strong proponent of women's rights.
During his rule, there were virtually no brothels in mainland China (although I am sure some black market shops existed).
It wasn't until Deng Xiao-ping came into power and opened up China's economy to more capitalistic principles that these things came back. Although I have heard it is not as widespread.
BTW: I have to re-iterate that I think Mao was a complete failure. I am just mentioning this as purely objective fact. I am in no way supporting him or validating him.
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The truth is, liberals like to create some thing out of nothing. At what standard do we use to judge China's Human rights violation and this so call pollution that matters?
Look at Japan for example, their fishing vessels don't even catch fish any where near the coast of Japan due to self inflicted pollution. The people of Middle East are still operating under tribal rules. We haven't tap in the Africa for the problems they're having, or S. America for that matter. The poverty issues within our own country is considerably worse than some of the industrialize post communist nations such as China and S. E Asia.
When point your finger at some one, you get four of your own point at your self.
I'm actually from Taiwan. When I grew up there, I was taught to "fight and take China back from the Communist." Today, there are direct flight from Taipei to Shanghai and yet on paper, they are still mortal enemies.
There has been a movement in the US leading our new generation into the wrong path, and our future generation is totally sold with the idea.
I had a funny experience when I visited London with my college band in 2004, because during cab ride, we disclosed our self as American Citizens and we talked about the anti-us sentiment we see through our own news net work regarding the invasion or Iraq. The cab driver said - "Americans are our friends and I'm glad that america as a country, still willing to go after those idiots who tries to stir up global stability. MY wife is a muslin and her community had a party when they heard the news. Those few F..kers running around holding protest signs against US actions thinking they representing the world are just bunch of hypocrites. They only protest when the weather is good."
There will always be two sides of the story. The US China relationship is very healthy at the moment. The US as a country, will help China improve their own country as a whole while benefiting from through trades. You can't change any mentality over night. Those who fought with the old communist party are still around, the new generation will make it better. The American dream is not only for Americans.
Look at Japan for example, their fishing vessels don't even catch fish any where near the coast of Japan due to self inflicted pollution. The people of Middle East are still operating under tribal rules. We haven't tap in the Africa for the problems they're having, or S. America for that matter. The poverty issues within our own country is considerably worse than some of the industrialize post communist nations such as China and S. E Asia.
When point your finger at some one, you get four of your own point at your self.
I'm actually from Taiwan. When I grew up there, I was taught to "fight and take China back from the Communist." Today, there are direct flight from Taipei to Shanghai and yet on paper, they are still mortal enemies.
There has been a movement in the US leading our new generation into the wrong path, and our future generation is totally sold with the idea.
I had a funny experience when I visited London with my college band in 2004, because during cab ride, we disclosed our self as American Citizens and we talked about the anti-us sentiment we see through our own news net work regarding the invasion or Iraq. The cab driver said - "Americans are our friends and I'm glad that america as a country, still willing to go after those idiots who tries to stir up global stability. MY wife is a muslin and her community had a party when they heard the news. Those few F..kers running around holding protest signs against US actions thinking they representing the world are just bunch of hypocrites. They only protest when the weather is good."
There will always be two sides of the story. The US China relationship is very healthy at the moment. The US as a country, will help China improve their own country as a whole while benefiting from through trades. You can't change any mentality over night. Those who fought with the old communist party are still around, the new generation will make it better. The American dream is not only for Americans.
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A standard is nothing more than personal morals, beliefs and perspectives; Views which are singular and often muted in favor to the masses. Unfortunately for China, "the masses" entails regimes of powerful government officials deafening singular voices of "the people."
In a very literal and comical sense, with my five fingers one would be pointed at your innuendo representation of "China's Human rights violatoin" while my other four fingers point to these quotes from the lastest CNN article:
How then would you interpret "justice" and "openness", are we phased in a never ending context where values treasured by one person can be deemed moot by the next? Thus, a Catch22 exist? (since you are in IT)
My belying resentment is towards diversification of the Taiwanese people; In particular that of the KMTs' standing on Taiwan independence. How can one possibly consume and reap the fortunes of a free democratic Taiwan then shy away from their stance on political independence?
Ma's decision to open cross-strait flights is like watching National Geographics channel on its wildlife excavations, giving you an false pretense of something good waiting to happen. Ma doing what he knows best, and being true to his character: acting on nothing more than an political puppeteer being strung by the KMT party at large.
While on the topic of fishing, it reminded me of my recent visit to the Taiwanese embassy here in L.A.
Nonchalantly, this poster was displayed for everyone to see:
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A standard is nothing more than personal morals, beliefs and perspectives; Views which are singular and often muted in favor to the masses. Unfortunately for China, "the masses" entails regimes of powerful government officials deafening singular voices of "the people."
In a very literal and comical sense, with my five fingers one would be pointed at your innuendo representation of "China's Human rights violatoin" while my other four fingers point to these quotes from the lastest CNN article:
How then would you interpret "justice" and "openness", are we phased in a never ending context where values treasured by one person can be deemed moot by the next? Thus, a Catch22 exist? (since you are in IT)
My belying resentment is towards diversification of the Taiwanese people; In particular that of the KMTs' standing on Taiwan independence. How can one possibly consume and reap the fortunes of a free democratic Taiwan then shy away from their stance on political independence?
Ma's decision to open cross-strait flights is like watching National Geographics channel on its wildlife excavations, giving you an false pretense of something good waiting to happen. Ma doing what he knows best, and being true to his character: acting on nothing more than an political puppeteer being strung by the KMT party at large.
While on the topic of fishing, it reminded me of my recent visit to the Taiwanese embassy here in L.A.
Nonchalantly, this poster was displayed for everyone to see:
I have no problem if you want to support Taiwanese independence--that is your prerogative.
But I think you should gets some facts straight:
When the KMT retreated to Taiwan in the mid-20th century, they brought along China's gold reserve with them--thus jump-starting Taiwan's economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan
So when you say that China is feeding off of the "fortunes" of a free and democratic Taiwan, I think you should really reconsider who bankrolled and provided for those freedoms. If anything, Taiwan fed off of China's gold reserve.
It's not like political democracy is sufficient to provide for economic prosperity.
And if you believe that modern-day China needs to feed off of Taiwan for economic prosperity, I suggest you take another look at whom is the more powerful economy. China has a GPD of 7.043 TRILLION dollars. Taiwan has a GDP of 695 BILLION dollars. I hope you didn't mean that China is feeding off of Taiwan today. That would be a gross misrepresentation of the truth.
Exactly what are Taiwan's natural resources besides manufacturing that was bankrolled by mainland China's gold reserve?
Although I have no problem with Taiwan wanting to be independent, I find the fanaticism and lack of objectivity associated with such desire to be intriguing. They [pro-independence supporters] utterly reject the people (i.e. mainland China) to whom they are most connected, and embrace people who merely wish to exploit Taiwan (e.g. Japan).
I would like to know why the Taiwanese people love to hate the Chinese, but simultaneously love to love Japanese people when they criticize China for exactly the same things that the Japanese did to them: Japanese occupied Taiwan; killed its people; spread propaganda and brainwashed at least one generation of Taiwanese people; forced upon them their education system and language; etc.etc.
I agree, what the KMT did when they got to Taiwan was atrocious. But have you considered that they would never have needed to retreat there in the first place had it not been for the Japanese invasion. Imperial Japan started a cascade of events that sent China AND Taiwan down a path that would have resonant effects for decades if not centuries. They have turned people against THEIR OWN people and vice versa.
How can you simultaneously criticize China without doing so with Japan? This may not be true of all Taiwanese, but it is certainly a trend and I don't think anyone will deny that. Is it that they have brainwashed the earlier generations to such an extent that the following generations grew up completely inducted under Japanese subversion?
If Taiwan becomes independent, they will be occupied by someone else--plain and simple. The United States would love to get its hands on Taiwan (it is constantly doing military testing in the Taiwan Straits) and so would Japan (they are constantly claiming the rights over Taiwanese islands).
And before you say: "That's preposterous. No one occupies another country in the modern day," I think you should take a look at what is happening in the middle east today. Occupations for natural resources.
It may not escalate into a military occupation, but I can guarantee a puppet regime will be set up.
None of this was meant to be a rhetorical put-down, but a sincere inquiry into the mind of a Taiwanese person who is anti-China.
Are you sincerely anti-China? Or do you just want Taiwan to be a member of the UN?
And if I understood you correctly, you are criticizing Ma Ying-jeou when the other guy (pro-independence) was dumb enough to think that unification with China would be a bad idea? At least Ma Ying-jeou has the sense to realize that independence from an up-and-coming superpower would be disastrous for Taiwan. You have to make the decision that will be best for your people, and isolating yourself from a big partner is not the scientific thing to do despite political climate.
And I am not sure what your criticisms of cross-strait flights mean? You don't think it is a good idea to open relations with China? Is that a very good objective decision that makes sense for the people, or is that a decision instilled by--ultimately Japanese indoctrination--and personal resentment of whom you were taught and raised to antagonize?
I would love to see peace between the two countries (or one country depending on how you perceive it) who share so much (e.g. race, culture, family, history, etc.) and to see China become more democratic and improve its problems.
P.S. I would like to clarify that I harbor no ill will towards Japan as a country or as a people/culture/etc. When I used "Japan" above, I was strictly referring to Imperial Japan and/or the Japanese nationalists that committed the atrocities pre- and during World War II including but not limited to the invasion of Manchuria and the rape of Nan King. Neither do I have anything against Taiwan or the US. I am actually pro-all four (i.e. Pro-Taiwan, Pro-China, Pro-US, pro-Japan).
My post was to clarify a misconception propagated in a previous post, and to try to bring some objectivity into the discussion.
World peace.
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How then would you interpret "justice" and "openness", are we phased in a never ending context where values treasured by one person can be deemed moot by the next? Thus, a Catch22 exist? (since you are in IT)
My belying resentment is towards diversification of the Taiwanese people; In particular that of the KMTs' standing on Taiwan independence. How can one possibly consume and reap the fortunes of a free democratic Taiwan then shy away from their stance on political independence?
Ma's decision to open cross-strait flights is like watching National Geographics channel on its wildlife excavations, giving you an false pretense of something good waiting to happen. Ma doing what he knows best, and being true to his character: acting on nothing more than an political puppeteer being strung by the KMT party at large.
While on the topic of fishing, it reminded me of my recent visit to the Taiwanese embassy here in L.A.
Nonchalantly, this poster was displayed for everyone to see:
I have two questions for you:
What is your take on this whole discussion since the topic is "does china deserve to host the olympic?"
and
Does your passport from Taiwan has "Taiwan" printed on the front page? Interestingly, my has ROC printed all over it: Republic of China, not Taiwan. So what makes you a Taiwanese instead of Chinese? Even the native American Indians are consider "American: Citizen of United States of America;" they don't have a passport with "Indan Nation," Do they? How about this one, does Taiwanese have their own language or writing? Fascinating isn't it? Heck, while you're at it, let me throw in FREE TIBET just to make it more festive!!!
Sarcastically speaking- "I'm not a American Citizen, I'm a New Yorker!!!" "Or I'm not from Canada, I'm from Quebec."
It just fascinates me when I used to live in Seattle back in the mid 1990's, I was invited to attend "Taiwan" independence movement parties. I never went because I know it is just a complete waste of time; last time I checked, they don't that any more. I wonder why?
You cannot have two nations bare the same name to be inducted in to the UN. Unless Taiwan becomes a nation of its own, you will continue to be classified a Chinese. Considering the fact that national flag of Taiwan is the same as the founding flag of Republic of China, as well as the national flower. Even though President such as Reagan, Bush and UN secretary Powell all treated Taiwan as a nation, but they still used ROC when they talk about Taiwan. Do you know the president of Taiwan is not even allow to give US a diplomatic visit? Have you ever heard of "don't bite the hands that feeds you?" The Kuomintang party as a friend of Unite States help stabilzed Taiwan after WWII and the economy grew faster than another other countries in the world between 1970/80's and yet, no one appreciate what they have done, instead, they want to be independent because they're "Taiwanese." I'm fascinated by the fact that after president Bien, they actually voted for Kuomintang part again!!! Without the relationship between the old party and US, Taiwan may have been taken back already by China years ago.
Just like most of the Chinese walking the earth, you know well that Taiwan will never be a country of its own. It will always be part of the China, a simple province. Once the Mainland completes it's transformation into Capitalism/democracy, reconciliation will happen between the two. It's just a matter of time.
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I'm afraid this is true. It is just an objective fact that the People's Republic of China (mainland China) will NEVER give up the Republic of China (Taiwan) without a fight--and with the way China is growing no one will be willing to fight with them.
Pro-independence movements are really a waste of everyone's time. If it's cathartic for you, then I support your protest, but you are fighting a losing battle.
What you SHOULD be focused on is improving the conditions in China.
I think what Vance Hu said is very hopeful: "Once the Mainland completes it's transformation into Capitalism/democracy, reconciliation will happen between the two. It's just a matter of time."
That is something I would love to see. China has made great strides in capitalism, and it has vaulted them into their superpower status today. I can't even imagine what a political democracy would do for them. Hopefully Vance is right and it is just a matter of time.
Off topic but Vance's point:
Reminds me of something my Political Science instructor told us, "Only in America, can ANYONE become an American". Might confuse some, but basically, I can't move to China and become chinese, taiwan and become taiwanese, or Canada and become canadian or Mexico and become Mexican (etc), but in America, ANYONE has the ability to come here (once they actually get here) and become an American in the United States of America.
Reminds me of something my Political Science instructor told us, "Only in America, can ANYONE become an American". Might confuse some, but basically, I can't move to China and become chinese, taiwan and become taiwanese, or Canada and become canadian or Mexico and become Mexican (etc), but in America, ANYONE has the ability to come here (once they actually get here) and become an American in the United States of America.
Ummmm. With all due respect - You are wrong! If you immigrate to Canada, UK and most of Western Europe then you are allowed in due time to become a citizen of that particular country. They have made it more strict in Europe(Netherlands for eg.) due to possible muslim extremists entering their country but otherwise the policy is very similar to the USA.
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fatmans, i dont need your bashing, i like the educated responses better,
you and i are not freinds, we are not internet freinds, you are not good enough to be on my buddylist, and will never make it on my myspace freinds, your gto is not the greatet thing in the world, you dont smoke the sh!t out of everything on the road, i pwnd you in the wrecked elise thread, and i pwnd you in the nsx vs e55 thread, game over, you = 0, me = +2
and just fyi: china has something like 1.3 trillion dollars in surplus,
Did you get your feewings hurt?
If I wanted your opinion on the matter I'll give it to you.
What warranted the friends and buddylist topic?
I never mentioned that I smoked everything on the road.
How did you own me on the elise and NSX vs. E55 thread?
Point them out.
BTW, I believe you've avoided the question:
Do you own a NSX?
or are you owned by a NSX owner (aka-living at home)
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I think you're reading into it too much. It's more simple than that and not so much having to do with being a citizen of that country but rather... not sure how I'd explain it but...... ex. I will assume you are of Caucasian sort, born raised in america, or germany then you moved to China. After a while you get granted citizenship. You then start to tell people, "Oh yeah, I'm chinese". It's going to be a tough one to swallow. Know what I mean? But if ANYONE says "Oh yeah, I'm an American", more than likely it's not going to be questioned.
It goes with what Vance was saying what is the difference between the chinese and taiwanese?
I don't know, it's difficult to explain. The terminology difference is the key to understanding and I can't pull up the fine differences at this moment.
I got your point, and I agree with you.
I could move to Germany, live there the rest of my life, become a German citizen, but I would never be "German".
But anyone can move to America and become "American". It's a uniqueness of this nation. Indeed, I rather despise all of the hypenated -Americans that people use. Whether it's Chinese-American, African-American, or whatever -- why marginalize yourself with the prefix? If you're a citizen, you're all Americans. My family is of Italian heritage, but I don't consider myself an "Italian-American" -- I'm just a plain ol' American.
Y'know -- if you're going to post all those pics, you should put a *SPOILER ALERT* in somewhere.
This doesn't get broadcast on the Left Coast until 8:00 tonight, and I'd kind of like to see it fresh.
This doesn't get broadcast on the Left Coast until 8:00 tonight, and I'd kind of like to see it fresh.
Thanks for the pics!!!
hezoos kleist!!!:biggrin:
Vance Hu of
hezoos kleist!!!:biggrin:
Vance Hu of
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