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How good is the NSX? really.

Yes.... bench racing, speculation, personal feelings, magazine reports, other car comparisons, and even lap times are what I was trying to stay away from on this thread. All the keyboard jockeying that's done on all the car forums about what car is faster and what has more horsepower and who would win in a race gives me a headache. I just wanted to know from the guys that actually DO IT, what racing the NSX is like, and the pluses and minuses of this car. Lack of seat support or a tendency for a bushing to fail matters more than some nurburgring time. I really don't care about that at all. Will this car make a good track car if made to do so? will it keep me safe? will the money spent on this chassis make sense? will it be reliable? will it starve for oil or overheat the cylinder heads? These are what is important to me.

Anyway most of those questions were already answered so.... if this thread is going to go in another direction; which it already has, I don't care. Billy why do you have two usernames? stuntman and fxmdbilly?
You are asking for something extremely subjective. The responses you will get will be from those who do track their NSX's and have more experience than the avg NSX driver.

So what's wrong with that? Their opinions will be swayed due to having more seat time in an NSX than other vehicles (applies to everyone except Billy). You will only get one side of the coin.

By allowing benchmarking/performance metrics, you can factor out some of the bias and get a better understanding of the question at hand. Sure there are variables which need to be taken into consideration but theres much more objectivity in the information.
 
The NSX is a good car. Get a baffled oil pan, accusump, oil pressure and temp gauge, maybe an oil cooler, suspension and tires and have at it. Its quite a reliable and fun car. Then upgrade to the Japanese gear ratio, add a OS Giken LSD (maybe 4.40 for non FI cars) and the car will wake up A LOT.

I am laughing my ass off right now because of all of the mods Dave has done to his car (and they are many) these are probably the only things he hasn't touched. Ahahahaha!!
 
I am laughing my ass off right now because of all of the mods Dave has done to his car (and they are many) these are probably the only things he hasn't touched. Ahahahaha!!

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I do think you already know the answer of your question, but you want assurance. Jack is right about the subjective part, but there are also many objective measurements. Just like we can usually objectively pick out the hot chicks, if any, from a group of women, but picking out the hottest chick is going to be subjective.

So how good really is the NSX? That mostly depends on how good YOU are, unless your capability is beyond the NSX's.
 
An NSX may not be the best car ever produced in the history of the world, but for those of us buying a used one for about 40K its my beleif you cant get more bang for your buck. It still is a supercar, gets lot of attetion and performance is great. The ratio of $/thrills must be introduced. in this case the $ must also take into effect the maintenance costs. This is a honda... an oil change is 20bucks... come one guys. Why compare this to a 100k+ car?

An s2000 has a lower price point still, but does it turn heads? Do people walk up and take pictures? no! If you want the supercar experience is the NSX worth it?

IMHO, this is the question...not if it will beat a 300k ferrari, or a 120k porche. Today, what car can you buy for 40k with the $/thrill ratio of the NSX.... ?????????
 
I'm late to the party on this thread, but here goes.

The NSX is still a great platform, mid engined, stiff (if you have a coupe) and the power to weight isn't bad, even N/A.

If you want to keep running DE's and enjoying your current car, then I STRONGLY suggest that you get Titanium Dave's non compliance stuff, this made a night and day difference for confidence and feel at the limit on my car.

I would then suggest getting a good set of coilovers, I know KW3's seem to be the trendy thing right now (yes they are better than just about any shock in the $2500 or less price range), but the fact of the matter is that a set of JRZ's or Motons are massively better. The Motons and JRZ's have a valving design that will give you tons of adjust-ability, everything from a 200lb spring to a 1200lb+ without re-valving. These shocks are also high pressure gas designs and just work great in general, adjust-ability range aside.

Those two suspension changes will make your car handle like a dream (you may want to seek help for spring rates and shock settings, I personally suggesting something like 550/450 600/500, as this will be a good mix that will still be compliant on the street and do very well on the track unless you add massive down force).

My car with JRZ's (well tuned for the track), Titanium Dave's non compliance kit and a full exhaust was more than two seconds a lap faster at Harris Hill than my friends Turbo car on similar tires.... this is with me driving BOTH cars on the timed laps (pushing equally hard and turning consistent lap times in both cars). The turbo certainly felt fast, and each time I was sure that we had to be equal to or faster than my car, but the lap times never came close (altho it was certainly a TON of fun to drive).

What was the difference? The first is that thankfully Harris Hill isn't a track that majorly favors horsepower, the second was that his turbo had issues with throttle response that made modulating the throttle difficult and the last and most import was the suspension setup (he has since switched from Buddy Clubs to JRZ triple's).

I'm with CL65 Captain on brakes, the Carbotech pads are the best available for the NSX. They don't have massive initial bite, but have plenty of force to lock the tires and they work consistently, are easy on rotors and are even streetable. I let a Porsche GT3 race driver do a few laps in my car and he said "wow, nice brakes"... I would have never imagined to hear that, but with good rotors (Stoptech or RB), Carbotech Pads and some ducts they perform very well.

I understand John@Microsofts comments. The fact of the matter is, if you want to race cars, buy a race care. I would personally suggest a spec class like Spec Racer Ford or Formula Enterprise. These type of classes put a lot more on the driver and make for a more level playing field equipment wise. You will spend less money to get a competitive car and spend the same or less per race weekend. You can also find some sweet deals right now and get a car that some other guy paid a fortune to make perfect and hardly drove.

If you enjoy the NSX and want to seriously track or race one, be ready with an open check book and I would suggest buying an early model coupe as a starting point, keep your beautiful 02+ as a street machine if you want to race.
 
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IMHO, this is the question...not if it will beat a 300k ferrari, or a 120k porche. Today, what car can you buy for 40k with the $/thrill ratio of the NSX.... ?????????

I've beaten both a 300k Ferrari and a 120k Porsche at Mid Ohio in both the NSX and Grandma's 97 Camry. If you can't use it, then it doesn't matter what you have. :biggrin:
 
I've beaten both a 300k Ferrari and a 120k Porsche at Mid Ohio in both the NSX and Grandma's 97 Camry. If you can't use it, then it doesn't matter what you have. :biggrin:

On a recent NSX track day outing, Jose (former NSX owner, we miss him) took his Audi RS4 out with FOUR people in the car (I was in the back seat) and we were the fastest car on the track and passed a Lamborghini Gallardo and 911 Turbo in just a few laps (needless to say they didn't seem happy to see three laughing/waving passengers).

Driving definitely goes a long way :)
 
I am laughing my ass off right now because of all of the mods Dave has done to his car (and they are many) these are probably the only things he hasn't touched. Ahahahaha!!

Dave- I would highly suggest that you add what Billy has recommended. When I drove Jon Martin's 3.8 stroker I felt like no one on the road could touch me. The car revved up so fast and had so much power.

Since you track those items mentioned will make a HUGE difference.

My suggestions are as in agreeance with Billy plus some of the things I have added myself

OS GIKEN, tilton ultra featherweight flywheel ( i have), new clutch, short gears( i want), baffled oil pan(I have the stmpo one coming), accumsump, a good BBK(stoptech, performance friction etc) even though I have the RB's 2 piece open slotted oversized kit which I think are fine for me, oil cooler kit, a good coilover kit(kw's or jrz's) I have JIC's FLTA2 corner weighted, balanced and aligned, a steering wheel (sparco or momo) I have the sparco 330mm with the taitec hub, comptech shortshifter(I have), zanardi gearstalk and zanardi shift knob (I have), non-compliance toe links and pivot clamps ( I have), all the stmpo chassis stuff ( i have the fcb), stmpo brake deflectors (i have), oil and exhuast temp guages, an ems or Vpro if you dont have one already to fine tune and squeeze more out of your set up. The HKS VPRO is great if you can find an authorized HKS dealer and you wont have to use ugly ass guages but you can monitor things off the jdm navpod and screen. Otherwise just find a clean way to mount the guages.....not on the pillar though!

Go lakers! :biggrin:
 
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I've beaten both a 300k Ferrari and a 120k Porsche at Mid Ohio in both the NSX and Grandma's 97 Camry. If you can't use it, then it doesn't matter what you have. :biggrin:

No Offense but that logic only works on us track junkies.

For Eg, I was keeping up at our home track with a track buddy in my SM. He was driving a new to him GT3. I ribbed him a bit and his comment was - At the end of the day I am going to trailer home my GT3 while you will be trailoring home a Miata!! You should have seen the pain in my face:redface:

2nd eg, An Acquaintance of mine owns a F40. He doesn't even floor the throttle in 1st gear and NEVER plans to track it. I don't care what you say - You can't really argue any track logic with a guy who owns a F40!
 
I would then suggest getting a good set of coilovers, I know KW3's seem to be the trendy thing right now (yes they are better than just about any shock in the $2500 or less price range), but the fact of the matter is that a set of JRZ's or Motons are massively better. The Motons and JRZ's have a valving design that will give you tons of adjust-ability, everything from a 200lb spring to a 1200lb+ without re-valving. These shocks are also high pressure gas designs and just work great in general, adjust-ability range aside.
If you are comparing the KW Variant 3 (or V3) street/track damper to a 3-way motorsports damper that costs twice the price of the V3, then you are comparing apples to oranges. You should compare the V3 and Clubsport to the Moton Clubsport and JRZ RS/RS Pro -which have their own limitations and are comparable to a KW V3/Clubsport.

Now for 3-way Moton/JRZ Motorsports Dampers compared to KW 3-way Motorsports Dampers, unless the driver and team can operate at a professional level in terms of getting everything out of the car, driver, setup, etc... these dampers are far more advanced with more potential than most of the people buying them (for many brand of vehicles) in club, regional racing, or track days. I've run 3-way Motons on the FXMD NSX and back-to-backed the KW 3-way Motorsports damper. Both are fantastic dampers and will get the job done, and both have huge motorsports backgrounds so you can't go wrong with either.

And the ability to have valving to range from 200-1,200lbs is NOT a good thing. This means each 'click' of adjustment is leaps and bounds between hundreds of pounds of spring rate rather than having the whole operating range in the ballpark where you are going to use it and tune it. JRZ/Motons can be ordered with this big of a range of adjustment but it's not the best thing in the world to do. Figure out the ballpark spring rate you want to run, then have the dampers valved with a much smaller range than a 1,000lb delta so adjustments are actually useful when tuning the car.


Billy
 
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Billy correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been told by my suspension "guru" that trying to use three way dampers without telemtry is a waste of time [let alone the money]?

Also, I have trouble maximising the two way KWs on my circuit race Civic beacuse I don't have enough time to do a meaningful amount of testing. Having said that, telling your fellow competitors that you have two way adjustable suspension is a win in the "psych wars" at club level racing :biggrin:
 
Billy correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been told by my suspension "guru" that trying to use three way dampers without telemtry is a waste of time [let alone the money]?
If you mean Data-recording like AIM or Motec (Telemetry sends data real-time to people back in the pits) -and if he was referring to shock potentiometers (aka: "Shock pots") to datalog what the suspension is doing.

Short answer:
-NO, you do not need that fancy data to yield benefits from 3-ways.
There really is no one single answer. But many club, regional, and national racers have 3-way dampers and do not have shock pots and some don't even have data recording devices atall.

Detailed:
Now if the driver is not very knowledgeable about suspension and or vehicle dynamics, and or if he dosn't have a crew chief or engineer working with him who knows about suspension, then yes they can be lost in the adjustability of 3-way dampers. Then again, depending on the level of knowledge, they can be lost in 2-way dampers as well as even spring rates/swaybars.

It's pretty much all relative to the abilities of the driver/crew/team. Many low-budget teams or privateers who aren't the most knowledgeable in terms of physics and setup do figure it out, but it takes A LOT of time and testing. The more knowledgeable you/your crew is about setup, and the more sensitive the driver is to changes, the faster development will happen.

Now if you do have shock pots, you need to be even more knowledgeable on the subject to know what you're looking at and to improve from what this higher level of data/info is providing. Without this knowledge, the information is useless.

Also, I have trouble maximising the two way KWs on my circuit race Civic beacuse I don't have enough time to do a meaningful amount of testing. Having said that, telling your fellow competitors that you have two way adjustable suspension is a win in the "psych wars" at club level racing :biggrin:
The general rule of thumb is to go full soft on everything and do a couple laps, come in and start stiffening up your compression a click or two and repeat until the desired level of damping is there, then do the same for rebound after you have your compression set.

In the real world you don't have this luxury. If you have KW V3s or Clubsports for your Civic (what year is it by the way?) I would go with KW's "baseline" as a starting point and try adding a click or two to compression and try that, then try adding a few clicks of rebound and just play with rebound since its easier to reach the adjuster until you dial that in pretty good, then feel how that compression you've set your car at is performing and adjust from there.


Billy
 
Thanks for the feedback Billy, I just need to commit more time to testing.

I race a '90 EF Civic, B18, Toda cams ect, Motec, Cusco LSD, Spoon close ratio gear set, running on Advan 048s.

I think my biggest problem is the car is actually faster on my non adjustable Bilstiens, than on the KWs! Time to bite the testing bullet me thinks :)
 
If you are comparing the KW Variant 3 (or V3) street/track damper to a 3-way motorsports damper that costs twice the price of the V3, then you are comparing apples to oranges. You should compare the V3 and Clubsport to the Moton Clubsport and JRZ RS/RS Pro -which have their own limitations and are comparable to a KW V3/Clubsport.

I was comparing them to the JRZ RS, RS PRO and Moton Clubsport. I agree that valving clicks that are large limit fine tuning, however I haven't had an issue with this.

I find the stock valving on the KW3 to be more limiting and if you don't like your car setup with KW3 valving you have a much more limited range to work with (and are particularly limited on spring changes).

If you were to go to unbiased professional race teams (not sponsored by or a vendor that sells any particular product) and force them to choose between the KW3, Moton Club Sport and JRZ RS PRO... I would be highly surprised if a single one chose the KW3's.

The problem with the above comparison is that the Motons and JRZ's are at vastly different price points, so its not completely fair. My point is, if you have money to drop and want the best then get the JRZ's or Moton's. If you want to spend $2500 or less, yes the KW3's are probably one of the best available shocks.
 
Yes.... bench racing, speculation, personal feelings, magazine reports, other car comparisons, and even lap times are what I was trying to stay away from on this thread. All the keyboard jockeying that's done on all the car forums about what car is faster and what has more horsepower and who would win in a race gives me a headache. I just wanted to know from the guys that actually DO IT, what racing the NSX is like, and the pluses and minuses of this car. Lack of seat support or a tendency for a bushing to fail matters more than some nurburgring time. I really don't care about that at all. Will this car make a good track car if made to do so? will it keep me safe? will the money spent on this chassis make sense? will it be reliable? will it starve for oil or overheat the cylinder heads? These are what is important to me.

Anyway most of those questions were already answered so.... if this thread is going to go in another direction; which it already has, I don't care. Billy why do you have two usernames? stuntman and fxmdbilly?

I can tell you this, at the local BMW club and Porsche club autocrosses that I do (which are open to all makes of cars) with a total of 4 events under my belt in the NSX, I've taken street tire FTD twice, and had 2nd fastest street tire time only 1/10th behind the FTD at the other two, one behind a fully prepped B16 CRX on RT615s and the other behind a 928GTS on star specs, and this is in the "slowest" model of NSX, the 95-96

I've beaten 997 911 turbos, C6 Z06s, lots of different Evos and STis, tons of older 911s, a fairly modded 944, and a bunch of other stuff that "on paper" should be faster

my car has NSXR suspension, NSXR front sway and chassis braces, and Zanardi rear sway, and NA2 brakes, and RT615s

I'm not a great driver by any means, above average at best, but for me the NSX has been a VERY easy car to drive fast, the only other car I've driven that compares is the S2K
 
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I was comparing them to the JRZ RS, RS PRO and Moton Clubsport. I agree that valving clicks that are large limit fine tuning, however I haven't had an issue with this.

I find the stock valving on the KW3 to be more limiting and if you don't like your car setup with KW3 valving you have a much more limited range to work with (and are particularly limited on spring changes).

If you were to go to unbiased professional race teams (not sponsored by or a vendor that sells any particular product) and force them to choose between the KW3, Moton Club Sport and JRZ RS PRO... I would be highly surprised if a single one chose the KW3's.

The problem with the above comparison is that the Motons and JRZ's are at vastly different price points, so its not completely fair. My point is, if you have money to drop and want the best then get the JRZ's or Moton's. If you want to spend $2500 or less, yes the KW3's are probably one of the best available shocks.
Don't forget the KW Clubsport which is more track-oriented (like RS Pro or Moton Clubsport) with higher spring rates.

The range between each click on the Moton Clubsports is generally twice as big (or equivalent to 2 clicks) as the Moton 3-way motorsports damper. Fine tuning the setup becomes difficult when searching for a middleground between two clicks. Also the Motons only adjust the highspeed damping (not the lowspeed) but you can play with canister pressures.

I will say that I agree that the first half of the valving of the KW V3/Clubsport is somewhat useless for compression and the softest 1/3 of the rebound adjustment is useless for rebound on the KW V3. But the rest of the adjustment for the V3's rebound is usefull from a compliant street to a very aggressive track setup. 1 click on the V3 IS NOTICEABLE (unless you're at the softest setting, then its too soft to feel much of a difference).

I've had no problems running 200lbs higher spring rates on KW V3s or Clubsport's base spring rate. IMO this is more than enough to add balance to a given setup (which can also be done with swaybars, alignment, aero, etc...) and be more than enough for most people who track their cars.

I tracked my V3-equipped NSX a couple days ago at Buttonwillow (EDIT - Video posted below) and without having enough time to set the dampers from the soft, comfortable street setting because I was only given 1 flying lap between run groups, the car was fantastic with great balance, and I felt the dampers were good enough for anyone to track aggressively. Having tracked Penske 2-way, Moton 3-way, JRZ 3-way, Tein, KW V3, KW 3-way Motorsports, and more NSXs, the V3s were very impressive with great damping characteristics:


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IMO the KW V3's have more potential in them than most drivers can get out of them. Unless you are but a handful of people who can get more time out of a 3-way Moton/JRZ/KW, I think the V3 is more than enough for anyone's street or track use.


Also, in yesterday's Redline Time Attack at Buttonwillow. (Off the top of my head) KW Variant 3's finished:

1st - Street Class RWD (Berk Technology's 135i)
2nd - Street Class RWD (EVOlution Racewerks 135i)
1st - Modified Class RWD (AFI Turbo's S2000)
2nd - Enthusiast Class RWD (S2000)

-That says alot when the competition in these classes are within tenths of seconds.



Scin - It's KW "V3" or "Variant 3" - not "KW3" ;) (There was a confusion of "KW3" in the past referring to the 3-way motorsports dampers).
 
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IMO the KW V3's have more potential in them than most drivers can get out of them. Unless you are but a handful of people who can get more time out of a 3-way Moton/JRZ/KW, I think the V3 is more than enough for anyone's street or track use.

I pretty much agree with everything you said. The KW V3 (working on not messing that up) are probably the best shock in terms of value for performance. The S2000 guys are sometimes getting full KW V3 coilovers for $2,000, which is hard to beat.

If you have the seat time, feel and ability to tune the car, then there is more performance to be had for a wider range of tracks and conditions (like when it randomly rains) from the JRZ RS and Moton Club Sports (at nearly twice the price). At any given Grand-Am race the majority of the top 10 will be using Moton's or JRZ, sometimes 80% or higher (granted these are often the three or four way adjustable).

Sorry to hijack turbo2go's thread and turn it into massive shock focus. Let us know what you end up doing Turbo2Go. Hopefully you keep tracking and enjoying the NSX. Maybe we will see you at NSXPO? Spring Mountain is a track well suited to for the NSX.

If you buy a race car, post pictures. If its a Stohr WF1, I may die of jealousy or attempt to steal it, ahh DSR you look so fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP7rYk38YDQ
 
I pretty much agree with everything you said. The KW V3 (working on not messing that up) are probably the best shock in terms of value for performance. The S2000 guys are sometimes getting full KW V3 coilovers for $2,000, which is hard to beat.

If you have the seat time, feel and ability to tune the car, then there is more performance to be had for a wider range of tracks and conditions (like when it randomly rains) from the JRZ RS and Moton Club Sports (at nearly twice the price). At any given Grand-Am race the majority of the top 10 will be using Moton's or JRZ, sometimes 80% or higher (granted these are often the three or four way adjustable).

Sorry to hijack turbo2go's thread and turn it into massive shock focus. Let us know what you end up doing Turbo2Go. Hopefully you keep tracking and enjoying the NSX. Maybe we will see you at NSXPO? Spring Mountain is a track well suited to for the NSX.

If you buy a race car, post pictures. If its a Stohr WF1, I may die of jealousy or attempt to steal it, ahh DSR you look so fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP7rYk38YDQ
I'm also on S2Ki under the "Billj747" username. Maybe you've read some of my posts.

Again, having too broad of a damper range can be somewhat useless. Because the V3's have the valving for 200lbs stiffer without any issues and can be softened to be under-damped, the V3s also have the adjustability to be softened for rain the same as JRZs -in your example. So from that standpoint, the both double adjustable JRZ and KW V3 have similar tuning abilities -not just an advantage of the JRZ.

I'm not sure I would say over 80% of the Grand Am field uses Moton/JRZ since Daytona Prototypes are roughly half the field and most of them use Penske/Sachs/Ohlins. I would agree that the majority of GT uses Moton/JRZ but that's like saying the majority of the 24 Hours of Nurburgring's field uses KW's.


Billy
 
KW V3-equipped NSX in-car video from Buttonwillow now up on Post # 168.


Check it out! :)


Damn, I'm jealous. You are running 4 seconds faster than me in essentially the same car and on STREET tires. I need some more of your professional coaching! When are we going to hit Buttonwillow again?
 
Damn, I'm jealous. You are running 4 seconds faster than me in essentially the same car and on STREET tires. I need some more of your professional coaching! When are we going to hit Buttonwillow again?
Remember he may stop coaching if you get to within 1 sec:tongue:
 
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