I just hope it will still be somewhat of an "exclusive" car, for lack of a better word. I don't want to have them so cheap that I see one at every gas station. That's what happened to the Integra Type R. We finally got the car in the U.S. and it was very rare to see one. I'm talking about back in 1997 and 1998. The Championship White car. Then they came out with the Black and Yellow cars and pretty much mass produced them. Now everybody and their ricer mom has one. I've even seen high school parking lots with 4 or 5 of them in there. It's such a pity to see cars like that with cut springs, clear tail lights and Z-3 fenders.
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NEW HSC Article 3.5 400 HP TURBO?!
- Thread starter White92
- Start date
White92 said:
See, then it's a pretty impossible situation. It should outperform anything in the "supercar" class, be cheap as a corvette with higher quality, but then again it should not draw too much attention so that too many people will buy it. How is that possible??
White92 said:
FYI: the true black and yellow ITR's were only available in 2000-2001 and only around 1600 imported per year. I wouldn't exactly call that mass produced...
It's the fake ITR's out there that are abundant...
White92 said:
No, the target MUST be the 360 and gallardo.
What I am saying is that the current car is beaten by a Z06 for roughly 1/2 the price. (50K vs 90K) This cannot be the case again. If it is, the new NSX will be reviewed once in every magazine and they will say "Its nice, but a Z06 will kill it for half the price". That cannot happen again. If it does, I think it will kill the sales of the car. It must say "WOW! What a fantasic car. Gallardo performance for 1/2 the price!". And it must have "SOUL" --whatever the hell that means. (ferrari guys always say that)
I realize the Z06 is very fast, but the nsx NSX MUST be faster.
My target numbers are:
0-60: 3.9
0-100: 8.5
0-150: 22
1/4 mile in 12.3 @ 120
That will put it slightly ahead of the 360 and right up there with the baby lambo.
It will also have to lap a track faster than the 360 CS and gallardo. Remember, by the time this car is here, the new version of the 360 will be out and I think a sport version of the gallardo will also be coming soon.
It will require a HP/weight ratio to accomplish these numbers. If that is 350HP and 2500 lbs, so be it. If it is 3000 lbs and 450HP, so be it.
And the final detail, it must do it for 60-90K less money.
If it meets those goals, it will be a success IMO.
if the HSC needs to blast the new competitors off the streets, then honda better prepare to upgrade the engine every 4 years which we know probably won't happen.....in the 14 years the NSX has been released, there was only one power boot...from 270-290hp.....
the HSC may blow away the C6 now....but what will happen when C7, 8, 9, 10 comes out in the near future??? power is only a part of our love for the NSX....
we will always have the peace of mind that handling and reliability are unmatched.....
the HSC may blow away the C6 now....but what will happen when C7, 8, 9, 10 comes out in the near future??? power is only a part of our love for the NSX....
we will always have the peace of mind that handling and reliability are unmatched.....
White92 said:
The 1600 units imported per year was my main point, hence I said it's not exactly mass produced.
Auto Show at the detroit show on espn said it has a 3.5L with 300+hp. No mention of hybrid except for the accord. In anycase, a 3.5 engine will produce at least 350hp. The gt3 na 3.6L engine has 380hp. I think 350hp is respectable. Also they talked about automakers given consideration for tuners. So I'm sure honda had comptech in mind.
nsxtacey said:
See, I don't think so. How is having 50 less HP than a stock 45K corvette acceptable in a car costing nearly twice as much? I would be surprised if the HSC even weighs 100 lbs less than the new vette.
I am hoping for at least 400HP.
Akira said:
I understand what you mean and I, in a sense, agree, we have to remember the true reasons why the NSX was such a success at its debut: because they were winning on every aspect over its direct competition.
Matchless reliability.
Better performance numbers WITH better driveability.
Better efficiency ( weight, power output, torque curve flatness and fuel consumption. Just to name a few... )
Better comfort and ergonomy...
Matchless construction quality this side of a half M$ car
Better price
Corollary it is easy to see why the NSX today isn't a commercial success and IMO, Honda would make a HUGE mistake to believe that the second gen NSX will be recognized as a great supercar if they don't win in all the afore mentionned aspects.
Just see what happens TODAY.
Of course, true sportscar connoisseurs will see in the actual NSX a great car but always with the help of taking context into account and this is not enough...
IOW, actually, the NSX can be perceived as a relative supercar but not an absolute one.
Relative regarding its achievements vs its relatively small power, torque and tyre patch numbers...
Thus proving the fact that, proportionnally speaking, the NSX is an outstanding performer.
Absolute, well, we all know that the supercar world pays a lot of attention about the raw numbers.
So I understand Akira you wish the next NSX to be an absolute supercar.
I wish too, but I would also accept Honda to bring us a car that will outperform the competition ( read: entry and mid level Ferraris, Murciélago and Gallardo, 911 TT ... ) even if they achieve it with smaller hp, tq and tyre patch numbers.
But like in 1990, not too far numbers from the competition.
270 hp was only 9% less than the 300 hp Ferrari.
So this would means today around 410 hp comparing with a 450 hp competition, 455 hp with a 500 hp competition, 500 hp with a 550 hp competition...
IOW I would be pleased to see Honda proving to the automotive world their second to none efficiency again in the NSX case.
BOBW would be to offer two NSX version like Porsche.
I continue to believe that Honda could bring us that kind of NSX:
a 3 kg/hp or less super handling car.
Something like:
1225 kg
3,8 L @ more than 125 hp/L
Flat torque curve redlining @ 9K ( 10K would be brilliant ).
Long life to the NSX...
effer
BITeR nailed it in his post. Some people have these pipe dreams of 500+ hp. Speed costs money. Where is Honda going to find buyers for a $120K+ car? How big do you think the market is for the likes of 360's, Gallardos, GT's, 911T's, etc?
CokerRat said:
Those cars all sell a lot more than the 200 NSX's honda sells per year. So, I would say big enough for more HP.
the beauty of the nsx is it's price and performance in contrast all other supercars....if honda does indeed produce a 550hp beast that costs $150k, they will have a hell of a time selling it....
let's take a survey, for an msrp of roughly $150k, would you want to own a honda OR a....
F360
gallardo
GT3
911 turbo
and the list goes on....personally, i wouldn't spend that type of $$$ to buy any car from honda......
let's take a survey, for an msrp of roughly $150k, would you want to own a honda OR a....
F360
gallardo
GT3
911 turbo
and the list goes on....personally, i wouldn't spend that type of $$$ to buy any car from honda......
Blue Knight said:
Assuming performance is on par or even better I don't see any reason not to get one other than the badge appeal. I'll take one.
There are enough cars in the expesive and status bin. (i.e. Ferrari, Lambo...) People with tons of money will always get what they want anyways. These cars will always be top notch in the performance and looks department.
The NSX has, and hopefully will continiue, to be a pure sportscar, and only that. Why can't it be an alternative to those who don't want to pay a huge premium for the name on the hood?
Why can't it be the car that delivers 8/10 of the performance, all the looks, for 1/2 the price?
Most of us can't even use the current NSX performance, and for sure would need a several driving aids to tame 500 hp and 2500 lbs that some have in their dreams. Bragging rights is all that's about.
And comparing the Z06 to everything discussed is starting to annoy me. Buy the damn z06 then if it is such a good deal!
Start asking why the z06 is so cheap.
If z06 is the new reference, people don't need another NSX, because all their dreams are answered in that car. 400 hp, lots of torque, handels well, cheap.
Ohh. I forgot, you don't want to see it on every single street corner. Bummer.
The NSX has, and hopefully will continiue, to be a pure sportscar, and only that. Why can't it be an alternative to those who don't want to pay a huge premium for the name on the hood?
Why can't it be the car that delivers 8/10 of the performance, all the looks, for 1/2 the price?
Most of us can't even use the current NSX performance, and for sure would need a several driving aids to tame 500 hp and 2500 lbs that some have in their dreams. Bragging rights is all that's about.
And comparing the Z06 to everything discussed is starting to annoy me. Buy the damn z06 then if it is such a good deal!
Start asking why the z06 is so cheap.
If z06 is the new reference, people don't need another NSX, because all their dreams are answered in that car. 400 hp, lots of torque, handels well, cheap.
Ohh. I forgot, you don't want to see it on every single street corner. Bummer.
White92 said:
not to burst your bubble but i would rather take an S2000 with an FI system for less.....
a $45k supercar from honda sounds fishy......
You're not bursting my bubble. I don't want Honda to do that either. I was just saying "what if?" Honda has already said that there will be no rival for the HSC, but for some reason all of the message boards keep referring to the Z06 when comparring the HSC to something. I personally don't think of the Z06 as a supercar.
understood.....my whole philosophy is if i like it and the price is right, i'll buy it....regardless of how it compares to others....i'm convinced that the Z06 and other sports car indeed perform very well but i'm not into american autos.....
in short, nobody is right or wrong about an auto purchase....if they have the dough and interest, let them be.....
in short, nobody is right or wrong about an auto purchase....if they have the dough and interest, let them be.....
With all due respect to Netviper, people will not be cross-shopping the next gen NSX and the Z06 if it remains true to it's exotic HSC looks. If it gets diluted down with less exotic looks
they might. I would gladly spend more for a more exotic looking Honda with less horsepower than the tepid looking Chevy anyday. (Just depends on the performance, IMO).
they might. I would gladly spend more for a more exotic looking Honda with less horsepower than the tepid looking Chevy anyday. (Just depends on the performance, IMO).
JimK said:
I am not saying that people would buy a Z06 over the HSC strictly because of performance.
What I am saying is for HSC to be taken seriously by the rest of the automotive world and potential buyers, it must peform better than the current Z06. I don't know if there is anything Honda can do to touch the next gen Z06.
I just don't want the car to come out and the first review says "nice car, but the Z06 can toast it for 1/2 the price and a 500HP all new Z06 is just around the corner".
NetViper said:
Hi NetViper!
Two things we must consider,
first,
real car enthousiasts know that there is nothing for nothing and if a Z06 is cheaper than some other sportscars you lose somewhere for sure ( reliability? build quality?... ) AND more important, it won't be enough to convince somebody able to spend 90K$ or more on a car to choose the Z06 over its more expensive competition.
My point is they don't belong in the same market share. Honda MUST consider to offer a better car than the entry level Ferrari
( today it is the 360 Modena ) in every aspect at a cheaper price, say the actual price, then it will be successful... ( at the same time I think the Z06 case will be over! "Faisant d'une pierre deux coups!" )
Second, as for the Dodge Viper, price will go up for the Z06 ( for sure if we consider that GM said they want to improve the quality of car ) and this bargain factor will diminish a bit. I wouldn't be surprised to see 60K$ to 70K$ sticker price.
I agree with you, the next NSX should be kicking serious asses, and to do so, IMO it must be a less than 3kg/hp marvel whatever hp its engine will produce...
Cheers,
Effer
right on, effer.....
on top of that...personally, i go for the reliability. though new cars have at least a 3yr/36k warranty, if i were to bring it in 20 times during its warranty period, that to me is a no no though i spend $0
the impacted time is already costing me $$$ (time off work) not to mention the time off the driving excitement.
the whole thing boils down to the fact that we want a nice performer in the market so more people would buy and in turn bring honda more $$$ to continue in this great legacy car or perhaps invest in new projects.
or perhaps people just want a car that can outperform most of its competitors....which will be hard because as i said before, if honda is indeed providing us with a supercar, they will not be upgrading the engine every 2-4 years so for those that want the nsx to perform in par if not better than its competitors, you better look 10 years ahead for all competitive vehicles.
in other words, honda better bring us a car that is at least 500hp....to just stay afloat in the pool of future competitors.
bugatti's already got a supercar close to 1000hp.....can't imagine how soon others will be able to follow.....
on top of that...personally, i go for the reliability. though new cars have at least a 3yr/36k warranty, if i were to bring it in 20 times during its warranty period, that to me is a no no though i spend $0
the impacted time is already costing me $$$ (time off work) not to mention the time off the driving excitement.
the whole thing boils down to the fact that we want a nice performer in the market so more people would buy and in turn bring honda more $$$ to continue in this great legacy car or perhaps invest in new projects.
or perhaps people just want a car that can outperform most of its competitors....which will be hard because as i said before, if honda is indeed providing us with a supercar, they will not be upgrading the engine every 2-4 years so for those that want the nsx to perform in par if not better than its competitors, you better look 10 years ahead for all competitive vehicles.
in other words, honda better bring us a car that is at least 500hp....to just stay afloat in the pool of future competitors.
bugatti's already got a supercar close to 1000hp.....can't imagine how soon others will be able to follow.....
Blue Knight said:
As far as this Bugatti is conserned, I think will be a big flop. They're already struggeling to develop it, it's incredible expensive, and it's the biggest "show off bragging car" ever to be made. 16 cylinders and 1000 hp. That was a goal from the get go.
To me it sounds like some jerks discussing cars over dinner and came up with the idea: "hey, let's make a car with 1000 hp." That will blow some wind into the old Bugatti name.
IMO, there is only one ultimate supercar, and it's the McLaren F1. I'd still prefer that one over the Bugatti, even today.
Bugatti - Snob factor ultimate deluxe.
McLaren F1 - Formula 1 on the street.
I may be proven wrong on this one, and sorry for taking this way off topic.
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