Torco oil the best oil now?

[greenberet]

This discussion is about oil for the engine. If you'd like to start a separate topic for fluid to use in the transmission, please feel free to do so. Or post to one of the dozen such topics that already exist.

Don't worry, I’m not trying to change the topic. If I wasn’t clear enough: I wanted to demonstrate that blindly following every recommendation in the Owner’s or Service Manual is not necessarily what’s best for your NSX. I’m sure you’ll agree with that, however grudgingly, if you think about the recommended torque values for the oil pan bolts, the recommended replacement interval for the crankshaft pulley, the transmission oil recommendation, etc.

However, if you don’t understand the reasons behind Honda’s published recommendations and the pros and cons of potential alternatives, then I agree that it's safest to follow your advice - just stick with what the Owner’s Manual specifies.

Running a 10w-30 in Denver is fine for an NSX. You’ll just need to take a bit more care while warming the car up than you would with a 5w-30 or a 0w-30.

 

[stuntman]

Don't worry, I’m not trying to change the topic. If I wasn’t clear enough: I wanted to demonstrate that blindly following every recommendation in the Owner’s or Service Manual is not necessarily what’s best for your NSX. I’m sure you’ll agree with that, however grudgingly, if you think about the recommended torque values for the oil pan bolts, the recommended replacement interval for the crankshaft pulley, the transmission oil recommendation, etc.

However, if you don’t understand the reasons behind Honda’s published recommendations and the pros and cons of potential alternatives, then I agree that it's safest to follow your advice - just stick with what the Owner’s Manual specifies.

Running a 10w-30 in Denver is fine for an NSX. You’ll just need to take a bit more care while warming the car up than you would with a 5w-30 or a 0w-30.

I don't see an issue with running a 0W30 or 5W30 rather than the 10W30 that's specified in the manual, especially if you live in Denver.

 

[nsxtasy]

Honda's engineers did an extensive analysis, with computer simulations as well as empirical testing, in order to determine their viscosity recommendations. They do not recommend the use of 5W30 or 0W30 engine oil at ambient temperatures above freezing, which are typical in Denver, including winter.

I would never use those viscosities in an NSX in Denver, and I would never consider buying an NSX whose owner used engine oil whose viscosity contradicts Honda's recommendations. But of course you can use whatever viscosity you want. It's your car.

 

[greenberet]

Honda's engineers did an extensive analysis, with computer simulations as well as empirical testing, in order to determine their viscosity recommendations.

I believe Honda recommended two engine oils for all the cars they built in the 1990s: a 5w-30 or 10w-30 dino oil. That allowed their dealerships to minimize the number of engine oils they had to carry. As such, the question was which of those two was a safer recommendation for the NSX given 7500 mile oil change intervals. A 5w-30 dino oil is better for the engine at startup (even in Miami) but a 10w-30 will tend to be more shear stable as the miles pile on. Given the choice between only those two alternatives and 7500 mile oil change intervals, I can fully understand the preference for the 10w-30 dino oil in mild climates. However, if you don’t have to worry about shelf space or profitability, your choice is less constrained. You can buy an oil that protects the engine as well as possible at startup AND is shear stable, even if that means it’s more expensive than what dealers stock by the barrel for Accords and Civics.

… I would never consider buying an NSX whose owner used engine oil whose viscosity contradicts Honda's recommendations.

If I were in the market for a used NSX, one of the greatest selling points I can think of would be seeing that the car had been serviced by Larry Bastanza or Kaz. As you are well aware, at least one of the two fills a fully synthetic 0w-XX into the crankcases of his and his customers NSXs. Your statement implies that you would never purchase an NSX serviced by them.

You cannot be serious.

 

[stuntman]

Honda's engineers did an extensive analysis, with computer simulations as well as empirical testing, in order to determine their viscosity recommendations. They do not recommend the use of 5W30 or 0W30 engine oil at ambient temperatures above freezing, which are typical in Denver, including winter.

I would never use those viscosities in an NSX in Denver, and I would never consider buying an NSX whose owner used engine oil whose viscosity contradicts Honda's recommendations. But of course you can use whatever viscosity you want. It's your car.

0W30s and 5W30s synthetics weren't prevalent (were they even around?) or have Viscosity Improvers that were as durable as modern oils -which are 20 years newer than when the NSX came out.

A 30 Weight/Grade oil is a 30 weight oil, whether 0W30 or 10W30. You might want to have a read here (and scroll to Chapter 1 and Chapter 3 at the bottom):

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-102/

"We left off discussing that a 0W-30 grade oil is not thinner than a 10W-30 oil. They both have the same thickness at operating temperature. The 0W-30 simply does not get as thick on cooling as the 10W-30. Both are still way to thick to lubricate an engine at startup." - BITOG

If you're using conventional oil, the 0 and 5W are much better for the motor at startup, especially in colder environments (no it dosn't have to be freezing, at 75*F all the oils are still way too thick). Synthetics tend to run thinner at room temp than conventional oils so the difference between a 0W and a 10W isn't as big, however there can be just as big of differences from brand to brand or even in various product ranges of 10W30 (or any weight) for the same manufacturer. The additive packages and levels also vary greatly amongst brands or even product lines. M1's 5W30 is greatly different from their High Mileage 5W30 from everything to viscosity at 100*F to operating temperature, to what additives and levels are in it.

If you're adamant about changing your oil every 10,000 miles or more and you track your car, then a 10W30 would probably be better. But if you change your oil at least every 5K, the 0 and 5Ws will probably be better for your motor. At the end of the day, going from a 0W30 to 10W30 or 5W40 wont cause your motor to blow up and there are far too many other factors to determine what is 'best'.

If you change your oil regularly and properly warm your car up before revving it or putting a heavy load on the motor, you probably can't go too wrong with the weight or brand. The C motors are very reliable motors that don't have bearing issues like the S54 and S65 BMW I6 and V8 motors (which make 100hp/L and rev a little over 8K rpm).


0.02

 

[BATMANs]

I remember my 1993 S-10 4.3 oil cap saying that it required 5w30.

5w30 has been out since the 70's.

 

[nsxtasy]

If I were in the market for a used NSX, one of the greatest selling points I can think of would be seeing that the car had been serviced by Larry Bastanza or Kaz. As you are well aware, at least one of the two fills a fully synthetic 0w-XX into the crankcases of his and his customers NSXs. Your statement implies that you would never purchase an NSX serviced by them.

I have never heard of anyone named Kaz. Larry B puts 10W30 in all the NSX's including those driven during spring and fall in his area, when temperatures are similar to winter in Denver.

I'm sure you can find a mechanic or two who ignores the advice of Honda's engineers. Just like some posters on this board think they're smarter than the Honda engineers who designed and built the NSX. You can believe whomever you want and trust whomever you want. I'll go with the Honda engineers over some mechanic I've never heard of.

0W30s and 5W30s synthetics weren't prevalent (were they even around?) or have Viscosity Improvers that were as durable as modern oils -which are 20 years newer than when the NSX came out.

Not true. 5W30 was prevalent 20 years ago, and at that time was the preferred viscosity at all temperatures for all Honda/Acura vehicles other than the NSX. The NSX was the only vehicle for which they recommended 10W30.

A 30 Weight/Grade oil is a 30 weight oil, whether 0W30 or 10W30.

A 10W30 or 0W30 is a 30 weight WHEN WARM. When cold, it's a 10 weight or a 0 weight. That's how multi-viscosity oils work.

FACT: Honda recommends 10W30, not 5W30 or any other viscosity, for an NSX driven when ambient temperatures are above freezing (32F). They recommend both 10W30 and 5W30 between -2F and 32F, and only 5W30 below -2F. These are the best viscosities to use, according to the Honda engineers who designed and built the NSX, and wrote the manuals.

 

[Honcho]

I believe Honda recommended two engine oils for all the cars they built in the 1990s: a 5w-30 or 10w-30 dino oil. That allowed their dealerships to minimize the number of engine oils they had to carry. As such, the question was which of those two was a safer recommendation for the NSX given 7500 mile oil change intervals. A 5w-30 dino oil is better for the engine at startup (even in Miami) but a 10w-30 will tend to be more shear stable as the miles pile on. Given the choice between only those two alternatives and 7500 mile oil change intervals, I can fully understand the preference for the 10w-30 dino oil in mild climates. However, if you don’t have to worry about shelf space or profitability, your choice is less constrained. You can buy an oil that protects the engine as well as possible at startup AND is shear stable, even if that means it’s more expensive than what dealers stock by the barrel for Accords and Civics.

If I were in the market for a used NSX, one of the greatest selling points I can think of would be seeing that the car had been serviced by Larry Bastanza or Kaz. As you are well aware, at least one of the two fills a fully synthetic 0w-XX into the crankcases of his and his customers NSXs. Your statement implies that you would never purchase an NSX serviced by them.

You cannot be serious.

Could not agree more, and my car has been serviced by LarryB. I run 10W-30 M1 specifically because it is shear stable and I track my NSX + daily drive year round. However, notwithstanding Ken telling me about the weather where I live and work, I noticed that on many days last winter when starting my car after work (having sat in 15F temps all day), the valvetrain was fairly loud. This is with a fresh valve adjustment and SOS LMA. It settled down once the temp gauge started to move. This motivated me to look into a 5W or 0W. M1 has a 0W30, but after speaking to some NSX engine experts (unnamed per request), they steered me to the M1 0W40 formula as a better year -round option for a tracked/daily NSX. Also, as you mentioned, Kaz fills his NSX's with this weight and he knows more about the C30A than Ken, considering he was one of the engineers who designed it. The M1 0W40 shears down to a 30 fairly quickly and then stabilizes as a thick 30 or thin 40, depending on how you want to look at it (~13 cSt).

Honda's engineers did an extensive analysis, with computer simulations as well as empirical testing, in order to determine their viscosity recommendations. They do not recommend the use of 5W30 or 0W30 engine oil at ambient temperatures above freezing, which are typical in Denver, including winter.

I know. I spoke to the folks who have this original test data. I also know why Honda selected these weights and it is related to more than just the engine design. That said, any 30 weight or 40 weight that meets Honda's API spec is suitable for the NSX C30A and C32B. 50 weight is bad juju except for a race engine running high oil temps.

0W30s and 5W30s synthetics weren't prevalent (were they even around?) or have Viscosity Improvers that were as durable as modern oils -which are 20 years newer than when the NSX came out.

A 30 Weight/Grade oil is a 30 weight oil, whether 0W30 or 10W30. You might want to have a read here (and scroll to Chapter 1 and Chapter 3 at the bottom):

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-102/

"We left off discussing that a 0W-30 grade oil is not thinner than a 10W-30 oil. They both have the same thickness at operating temperature. The 0W-30 simply does not get as thick on cooling as the 10W-30. Both are still way to thick to lubricate an engine at startup." - BITOG

If you're using conventional oil, the 0 and 5W are much better for the motor at startup, especially in colder environments (no it dosn't have to be freezing, at 75*F all the oils are still way too thick). Synthetics tend to run thinner at room temp than conventional oils so the difference between a 0W and a 10W isn't as big, however there can be just as big of differences from brand to brand or even in various product ranges of 10W30 (or any weight) for the same manufacturer. The additive packages and levels also vary greatly amongst brands or even product lines. M1's 5W30 is greatly different from their High Mileage 5W30 from everything to viscosity at 100*F to operating temperature, to what additives and levels are in it.

If you're adamant about changing your oil every 10,000 miles or more and you track your car, then a 10W30 would probably be better. But if you change your oil at least every 5K, the 0 and 5Ws will probably be better for your motor. At the end of the day, going from a 0W30 to 10W30 or 5W40 wont cause your motor to blow up and there are far too many other factors to determine what is 'best'.

If you change your oil regularly and properly warm your car up before revving it or putting a heavy load on the motor, you probably can't go too wrong with the weight or brand. The C motors are very reliable motors that don't have bearing issues like the S54 and S65 BMW I6 and V8 motors (which make 100hp/L and rev a little over 8K rpm).


0.02

Couldn't agree more, Billy. And with that, I'm stepping out of this oil discussion. I'll let you know if my engine blows up.

 

[stuntman]

Couldn't agree more, Billy. And with that, I'm stepping out of this oil discussion. I'll let you know if my engine blows up.

I'll be patiently waiting the catastrophic explosion when you don't use the factory fill weight or brand.

I base my oil choices off of the true viscosities (SUS V, cSt V @40&100*C - not just the 'grades'), additive levels, and history of the oils under track use, etc... I'm sure mine will blow up as well.

I'm also /thread and will leave it with:

If you change your oil regularly and properly warm your car up before revving it or putting a heavy load on the motor, you probably can't go too wrong with the weight or brand of a 0-10W/30-40 synthetic.

 

[nsxtasy]

I noticed that on many days last winter when starting my car after work (having sat in 15F temps all day), the valvetrain was fairly loud.

Most of us would not want to choose an oil viscosity that is only recommended on days when the temperatures are 30 degrees below normal, and not recommended when temperatures are normal for our area.*

But again, use whatever viscosity you want, for whatever reasons you want. Regardless of whether or not it's what's recommended by Honda for your car. It's your car! For my car, I'll stick with Honda's recommendations. Again:

FACT: Honda recommends 10W30, not 5W30 or any other viscosity, for an NSX driven when ambient temperatures are above freezing (32F). They recommend both 10W30 and 5W30 between -2F and 32F, and only 5W30 below -2F. These are the best viscosities to use, according to the Honda engineers who designed and built the NSX, and wrote the manuals.



*Number of days in the month in which a thinner viscosity than 10W30 is not recommended for use at the daily high temperature in Denver (i.e. number of days when the daily high was above 32F):

January 2013 - 25 days
January 2012 - 30 days
January 2011 - 25 days
January 2010 - 29 days
January 2009 - 27 days

Number of days in the month in which 10W30 is not recommended for use at the daily high temperature in Denver (i.e. number of days when the daily high was below -2F):

January 2013 - 0 days
January 2012 - 0 days
January 2011 - 0 days
January 2010 - 0 days
January 2009 - 0 days

Ref

 

[docjohn]

hmmm....I'm surprised Ken has never heard of Kaz.

 

[greenberet]

I have never heard of anyone named Kaz. … I'll go with the Honda engineers over some mechanic I've never heard of.

Kaz … was one of the engineers who designed [the NSX].

I hope that clarifies things.

FACT: Honda recommends 10W30, not 5W30 or any other viscosity, for an NSX driven when ambient temperatures are above freezing (32F).

Not true. Below is the engine oil recommendation page from the 2002 Japanese NSX Owner’s Manual. As you can see, at temperatures above freezing Honda’s engineers did not only recommend a 10w-30 for NSXs.

A 10W30 or 0W30 is a 30 weight WHEN WARM. When cold, it's a 10 weight or a 0 weight. That's how multi-viscosity oils work.

Yes. A multigrade 0w-30 acts like a straight 0 weight oil at subzero temperatures and like a 30 weight oil at 100°C. But I think there’s a bit of confusion regarding the basic principles of how oils act. At -35°C a 0 weight oil has a viscosity around 6200 cP and at 100°C, a 30 weight oil has a viscosity around 9 cP. So even with the 0 in its rating, a 0w-30 multigrade still gets a lot thicker as it gets cold. A straight 30 weight gets thicker still. At -35°C the viscosity of a straight 30 weight oil is well beyond 10000 cP. No oil that has the correct viscosity at normal operating temperature is going to be too thin at lower temperatures.


For anyone interested in educating themselves regarding engine oils, the web page stuntman linked to in post #55 above is very good. Sometimes even the most entrenched opinions can be revised if you are open to learning something new.

 

[nsxtasy]

FACT: Honda recommends 10W30, not 5W30 or any other viscosity, for an NSX driven when ambient temperatures are above freezing (32F). They recommend both 10W30 and 5W30 between -2F and 32F, and only 5W30 below -2F. These are the best viscosities to use, according to the Honda engineers who designed and built the NSX, and wrote the manuals.

Not true.

Of course it is. Please don't dispute facts or post statements that are obviously not true, because it just reveals that either (a) you don't know what you're talking about, or (b) you're just trying to confuse the discussion by ignoring the facts. Remember, every NSX owner in North America can open his/her owner's manual and find Honda's recommended viscosities for NSX's sold here. It looks exactly like this (because that's where this picture comes from):

Of course, there may be differences in recommendations between markets and continents, due to differences in climate, road conditions, and oil availability. For example, 5W40 is not all that commonly available in the United States. I'd recommend using whatever oil viscosity is recommended in your market. Once again, the recommendation for NSXs sold in North America:

FACT: Honda recommends 10W30, not 5W30 or any other viscosity, for an NSX driven when ambient temperatures are above freezing (32F). They recommend both 10W30 and 5W30 between -2F and 32F, and only 5W30 below -2F. These are the best viscosities to use, according to the Honda engineers who designed and built the NSX, and wrote the manuals.

If you don't believe this, or if you're some blowhard who wants to claim it's not true, don't take my word for it; just go to your owner's manual and look it up for yourself. (You can find it by going to the index in the back of the manual and looking for "Oil - Selecting Proper Viscosity Chart".)

This all goes back to whose advice you want to take regarding how best to take care of your NSX. You can follow Honda's advice, which is printed in your owner's manual. Or, you can follow the advice of your mechanic (who may advise you to use whatever oil he happens to stock in his shop, regardless of whether he thinks that's best for your car - or whom maybe you just don't want to argue with). Or, you can take the advice of some guy on the internet. It's your car; do whatever you think best. (But in all my years of caring for cars, I have yet to hear of anyone who encountered problems with a mostly-street-driven mostly-stock car because they followed the manufacturer's maintenance recommendations. But I know of numerous individuals who encountered problems because they decided not to do so.)

 

[greenberet]

Honda allows you to download Japanese NSX Owner’s Manuals on this webpage of theirs: http://www.honda.co.jp/ownersmanual/HondaMotor/auto/. If you check the engine oil recommendations, you will see that Honda did not only recommend a 10w-30 in warm climates. They also recommended a 5w-40.

If you want to believe that Honda never recommended anything other than a 10w-30 for NSXs driven in above-freezing temperatures, then I guess nothing will convince you otherwise. Not even verifiable facts coming directly from Honda. I am truly sorry about that and honestly suggest you read the webpage stuntman linked to in post #55.

 

[BBVNSX]

I'm located in Europe and my official Honda dealer also uses 5w-40 for the last 10 years or more... and Portugal is not cold at all :wink:

+1, When kaz speaks i listen

 

[dmscrx]

I use Eneos 5W-40 in my NSX and my 1100BHP CRX. It works just fine for me

 

[Old Guy]

I am curious about these categories. I have never heard of a reference to oil categories, Which standard body establishes these categories? The only thing I am familiar with in North America are the API certifications and the SAE grade designations. SAE grade covers the oil weight specification and the API (and the ISLAC standards) covers the performance level and intended use. There are currently 5 active API service categories SJ - SP and a whole bunch of obsolete categories. Most main line multi grade oils in production get the SP designation.

There is a separate group designation which sort of covers 'what is it made from'. That is separate from; but, may affect the API rating. There are also the completely separate OEM specific certifications. VW-Audi has some very specific oil performance standards some of which covers low SAPS which are aimed at managing the down side to direct injection engines.

 

[Matchpik]

I am curious about these categories. I have never heard of a reference to oil categories, Which standard body establishes these categories? The only thing I am familiar with in North America are the API certifications and the SAE grade designations. SAE grade covers the oil weight specification and the API (and the ISLAC standards) covers the performance level and intended use. There are currently 5 active API service categories SJ - SP and a whole bunch of obsolete categories. Most main line multi grade oils in production get the SP designation.

There is a separate group designation which sort of covers 'what is it made from'. That is separate from; but, may affect the API rating. There are also the completely separate OEM specific certifications. VW-Audi has some very specific oil performance standards some of which covers low SAPS which are aimed at managing the down side to direct injection engines.

API. Look up PAO oils.