What are the NSX's handling shortcomings?

[hofffam]

When the NSX was introduced in 1991 it was widely hailed as one of the best handling cars in the world. I believe with the exception of the Zanardi, few changes were made to the US spec NSX to improve its handling over its lifetime. When I drove one in 91 I could not believe its grip and balance.

My own 97 feels much the same but except I am more aware of a few things since the car is mine:

1. slight bias to understeer
2. flat cornering
3. excellent steering feel even with power steering
4. if I make the rear lose grip (throttle lift off or VTEC pulling out on a road) the car regains grip quickly
5. cowl shake/flex due to T top

How does the NSX compare today to sports cars commonly seen (Boxters, C6, M3, 350Z, etc.) on the road today?

What are you guys trying to change in the NSX handling with different shocks, etc.?

 

[nsxtasy]

What are the NSX's handling shortcomings?

There are none.

How does the NSX compare today to sports cars commonly seen (Boxters, C6, M3, 350Z, etc.) on the road today?

Very, very well.

What are you guys trying to change in the NSX handling with different shocks, etc.?

I replaced my shocks because my original ones were worn. I got Bilsteins because their handling is similar to the stock shocks when new, but I expect them to last longer.

Handling is often a trade-off between flatter cornering and a more comfortable ride. I think a lot of people get aftermarket suspensions because they want flatter cornering and are willing to give up a more comfortable ride. It's a matter of trade-offs and personal preference, not one being "better" than the other or a "shortcoming" in any way. And I bet there are plenty of owners of the other cars you mention who get aftermarket suspension parts for their cars for the same reason.

 

[IsR]

The driver :biggrin:

 

[BD]

How does the NSX compare today to sports cars commonly seen (Boxters, C6, M3, 350Z, etc.) on the road today?

What are you guys trying to change in the NSX handling with different shocks, etc.?

All of the cars you have mentioned above cannot out run a stock NSX. Even with the softest set of of the 1995 model. If you want suspension upgrade, OEM option that can be on par of better than the Italian and German counter parts are the Zanardi suspension and Type R suspension.

1. slight bias to understeer
2. flat cornering
3. excellent steering feel even with power steering
4. if I make the rear lose grip (throttle lift off or VTEC pulling out on a road) the car regains grip quickly
5. cowl shake/flex due to T top

1. Understeer can be easily taking care of by using thicker Front Sway bar. $150 bucks will buy you that happiness.
2. Flat cornering is resulted in the countless hours of design work by Honda Engineers, with the help of late Ayrton Senna
3. Power steering is a good feature but has little less feedback than the none-PS models. EPS is a very good system because it does not give you a "fake" feel of the road.
4. Properly balanced mid-engine car with one of the stiffest chassis will do that
5. Flex is acutally very minimal. With stiffer suspension, you will feel less flex.

There is a good reason why NSX lasted 15 years, and can still up against the best of the best in it's class.

 

[MvM]

1. slight bias to understeer
2. flat cornering
3. excellent steering feel even with power steering
4. if I make the rear lose grip (throttle lift off or VTEC pulling out on a road) the car regains grip quickly

I have upgraded my suspension by changing to the TEIN-RA. I know that many people now find them not so good but so far I have been very happy with them. Of course the ride is a bit less comfortable now but I do not mind that.
One of the things was doing the SoS Toe-link upgrade. I only did the toelinks so far and not the whole bar, but I can feel the difference in long, fast sweeping turns where the rear of the car has less tendency to 'take a set' when turning into the turn.
Next on the list is the Type R front swaybar.
As I have a coupe, I have no problem with cowl shake.

 

[Gerard van Santen]

I have upgraded my suspension by changing to the TEIN-RA. I know that many people now find them not so good.....

Who

 

[Q]

The driver :biggrin:

LOL! :biggrin:

I agree!

Question about resolving understeer, wouldn't you want to go with a bigger REAR bar instead of a front?

 

[minervoflorida]

The Driver by far.

For the street you will not need more handling than this car can deliver.

For the track, it looks as though the trpe R suspension was a nice improvement.

 

[H-carWizKid]

The driver :biggrin:

werd :biggrin:

 

[Ojas]

Question about resolving understeer, wouldn't you want to go with a bigger REAR bar instead of a front?

Yep: You are right.

Understeer can be easily taking care of by using thicker Front Sway bar.

I believe this is incorrect and will have the opposite effect. Here's a cheat sheet.

There's a very good way to remove understeer without modifying your car: "Use weight transfer to your advantage". This means, give it some gas... In other words, upgrade the driver as IsR mentioned.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

Yep: You are right.

I believe this is incorrect and will have the opposite effect. Here's a cheat sheet.

There's a very good way to remove understeer without modifying your car: "Use weight transfer to your advantage". This means, give it some gas... In other words, upgrade the driver as IsR mentioned.

I concur, the thicker front sway bar would probably helped the car stay flat and feels like it turn in crisper... creating an illusion of less understeer, but this only occurs when the chassis and tires not at the limit. Going faster in, you will see worse understeer. but you are so right that the proper weight transfer will help the situation.... Come to think of it, I beleived Dal motorsports once mentioned nsx needs to have stronger front end... like really thick sway bar and struct bar..... and a lot of race trim nsx had no rear sway bar.....


the other much cheaper option is to adjust your tire pressure... It greatly affects the handling of a sports car / modified car.

4. if I make the rear lose grip (throttle lift off or VTEC pulling out on a road) the car regains grip quickly

:biggrin: Try drive that thing on icy roads, you will be even more amazed how well the LSD works with the rear traction!!!

 

[Synthesis]

The Driver by far.

For the street you will not need more handling than this car can deliver.

For the track, it looks as though the trpe R suspension was a nice improvement.

i disagree..... i met its limits the first day i had the car.... on the street. :smile:

 

[KooLaid]

Yep: You are right.

I believe this is incorrect and will have the opposite effect. Here's a cheat sheet.

There's a very good way to remove understeer without modifying your car: "Use weight transfer to your advantage". This means, give it some gas... In other words, upgrade the driver as IsR mentioned.

There is a Science of Speed cheat sheet too. I saw on here before but can't find it anymore. Lists what affect doing various individual things to front or rear will do to a car in terms of under/oversteer. Ex: sway bar thickness front or rear, decrease/increase front/rear tire diameter, etc.

 

[WingZ]

i disagree..... i met its limits the first day i had the car.... on the street. :smile:

Is this when you hit the deer? LoL

 

[kkim]

Chassis Tuning & Modifications
Tires​

<TABLE width=400 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=101><SMALL>Modification</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>To Reduce Understeer or Increase Oversteer</SMALL></TD><TD width=130><SMALL>To Reduce Oversteer or Increase Understeer</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=101><SMALL>Front Pressure</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Increase in 2.5 lb increments</SMALL></TD><TD width=130><SMALL>Decrease in 2.5 lb increments</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=101><SMALL>Rear Pressure</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Decrease in 2.5 lb increments</SMALL></TD><TD width=130><SMALL>Increase in 2.5 lb increments</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=101><SMALL>Front Tire Width</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Increase Width</SMALL></TD><TD width=130><SMALL>Decrease width</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=101><SMALL>Rear Tire Width</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Decrease Width</SMALL></TD><TD width=130><SMALL>Increase Width</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=101><SMALL>Front Aspect Ratio</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Higher Ratio</SMALL></TD><TD width=130><SMALL>Lower Ratio</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=101><SMALL>Rear Aspect Ratio</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Lower Ratio</SMALL></TD><TD width=130><SMALL>Higher ratio</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=101><SMALL>Front Tread Depth</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Decrease Depth</SMALL></TD><TD width=130><SMALL>Increase Depth</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=101><SMALL>Rear Tread Depth</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Increase Depth</SMALL></TD><TD width=130><SMALL>Decrease Depth</SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Wheels​

<TABLE width=400 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=102><SMALL>Front wheel width</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Wider</SMALL></TD><TD width=129><SMALL>Narrower</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=102><SMALL>Rear Wheel width</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Narrower</SMALL></TD><TD width=129><SMALL>Wider</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=102><SMALL>Front wheel weight</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Lighter</SMALL></TD><TD width=129><SMALL>Heavier</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=102><SMALL>Rear Wheel Weight</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Heavier</SMALL></TD><TD width=129><SMALL>Lighter</SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Alignment​

<TABLE width=400 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=103><SMALL>Front Camber</SMALL></TD><TD width=152><SMALL>More Negative</SMALL></TD><TD width=127><SMALL>More Positive</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=103><SMALL>Front Caster</SMALL></TD><TD width=152><SMALL>More Positive</SMALL></TD><TD width=127><SMALL>More Negative</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=103><SMALL>Front Toe</SMALL></TD><TD width=152><SMALL>More Toe-out</SMALL></TD><TD width=127><SMALL>More Toe-in</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=103><SMALL>Rear Camber</SMALL></TD><TD width=152><SMALL>More Positive</SMALL></TD><TD width=127><SMALL>More Negative</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=103><SMALL>Rear Toe</SMALL></TD><TD width=152><SMALL>More Toe-out</SMALL></TD><TD width=127><SMALL>More Toe-in</SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Swaybars​

<TABLE width=400 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=104><SMALL>Front</SMALL></TD><TD width=152><SMALL>Soften</SMALL></TD><TD width=126><SMALL>Stiffen</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=104><SMALL>Rear</SMALL></TD><TD width=152><SMALL>Stiffen</SMALL></TD><TD width=126><SMALL>Soften</SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Spring or Torsion Bar Rates​

<TABLE width=400 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=104><SMALL>Front</SMALL></TD><TD width=150><SMALL>Soften or Smaller</SMALL></TD><TD width=128><SMALL>Stiffen or Bigger</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=104><SMALL>Rear</SMALL></TD><TD width=150><SMALL>Stiffen or Bigger</SMALL></TD><TD width=128><SMALL>Soften or Smaller</SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Shocks​

<TABLE width=400 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=104><SMALL>Front</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Soften</SMALL></TD><TD width=127><SMALL>Stiffen</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=104><SMALL>Rear</SMALL></TD><TD width=151><SMALL>Stiffen</SMALL></TD><TD width=127><SMALL>Soften</SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Suspension Bushings​

<TABLE width=400 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=104><SMALL>Front</SMALL></TD><TD width=153><SMALL>Stiffen</SMALL></TD><TD width=125><SMALL>Soften</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=104><SMALL>Rear</SMALL></TD><TD width=153><SMALL>Soften</SMALL></TD><TD width=125><SMALL>Stiffen</SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Brake Proportioning​

<TABLE width=400 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=106><SMALL>Front</SMALL></TD><TD width=140><SMALL>Reduce Pressure</SMALL></TD><TD width=136><SMALL>Increase Pressure</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=106><SMALL>Rear</SMALL></TD><TD width=140><SMALL>Increase Pressure</SMALL></TD><TD width=136><SMALL>Reduce Pressure</SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Weight Distribution​

<TABLE width=400 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=106><SMALL>Front</SMALL></TD><TD width=139><SMALL>Reduce</SMALL></TD><TD width=137><SMALL>Increase</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=106><SMALL>Rear</SMALL></TD><TD width=139><SMALL>Increase</SMALL></TD><TD width=137><SMALL>Reduce</SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Aerodynamics​

<TABLE width=400 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=88><SMALL>Front</SMALL></TD><TD width=147><SMALL>Increase Downforce</SMALL></TD><TD width=147><SMALL>Decrease Downforce</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD width=88><SMALL>Rear</SMALL></TD><TD width=147><SMALL>Decrease Downforce</SMALL></TD><TD width=147><SMALL>Increase Downforce</SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[Synthesis]

Is this when you hit the deer? LoL

haha, that's cold as ice. actually i waited almost an entire year before i railed the deer :wink:

first day i got it i was givin it hell and was almost convinced that it could not kick the ass end out.... so i gave it a few shots and was finally sucessful.... driftin at 75.... little scary in a car you bought just 6 hours prior. especially when you're still in that "whoa i have an nsx" daze.

 

[AndyNSX]

I've come from a Z06 and Gen 2 Viper, which are both good handling cars. I was amazed when I got my NSX how much better the handling was. Much more nimble, precise, and stable at high speeds. Especially after sharp turns and curvy roads, you can just tell that this car was engineered on another level.

 

[Synthesis]

I've come from a Z06 and Gen 2 Viper, which are both good handling cars. I was amazed when I got my NSX how much better the handling was. Much more nimble, precise, and stable at high speeds. Especially after sharp turns and curvy roads, you can just tell that this car was engineered on another level.

but apparently it's poop compared to the gallardo (aka mortgage on wheels)

 

[nsxtacey]

Theres a noticeable difference in balance when reducing the rear weight. I recently had lighter hearders and exhaust installed, took some junk out of the trunk and now the car feels more 50/50.

 

[WingZ]

haha, that's cold as ice. actually i waited almost an entire year before i railed the deer :wink:

first day i got it i was givin it hell and was almost convinced that it could not kick the ass end out.... so i gave it a few shots and was finally sucessful.... driftin at 75.... little scary in a car you bought just 6 hours prior. especially when you're still in that "whoa i have an nsx" daze.

Sorry man! Since you and the car were okay I couldn't resist:biggrin: Yeah any car will lose traction depending on the situation.

 

[hofffam]

I started this thread.....and I think my NSX is a fantastic handling car. So it seems you guys think so too. I guess I was wondering why it seems so many of you have aimed for Zanardi or NSX-R handling. I think one thing I forget is how many of you track your cars. I don't expect to do that and I value the outstanding balance of handling AND comfort built-in to the NSX.

I know there are some complex turns I can take comfortably at 70+ MPH in the NSX and it blows my mind!

 

[NSXGMS]

I started this thread.....and I think my NSX is a fantastic handling car. So it seems you guys think so too. I guess I was wondering why it seems so many of you have aimed for Zanardi or NSX-R handling. I think one thing I forget is how many of you track your cars. I don't expect to do that and I value the outstanding balance of handling AND comfort built-in to the NSX.

I know there are some complex turns I can take comfortably at 70+ MPH in the NSX and it blows my mind!

The NSX was designed as a track car but Honda had to please everyone. This means a huge compromise which they pulled off quite well. Many owners, including Ken (NSXTASY) who track their NSX frequently don't change a thing--the Bilsteins are very OEM like--and are happy.

When you don't compromise you end up with something like a Lotus Elise. The Elise alienated a lot of potential buyers because of it's aggressive setup and caused a lot of early trade-ins/resales. But the people who bought it knowing it was essentially a "Type-R" car are ecstatic.

But many who do track their cars including myself are not as concerned with the comfort and want to get the most out of the vehicle on the track while still maintaining driveability on the street. I bought the car to drive and have fun and I want it to perform as well as possible on the track at the expense of almost all else.

My car is lowered. That fact alone wouldn't sit well (no pun intended) with many owners. But I'll take the scrapes for a better look IMO, and better handling. It's the reason manufacturers offer sport models in the first place. If the demand wasn't there Honda would never have made the Type-R.

If you don't plan on tracking your car I would think there's no reason to upgrade the suspension. If you want it lowered I would simply get Bilsteins and use the lowering perch to drop ~.875".

Unless you're driving hard (too hard, IMO,) on the street, you'll never really get to take advantage of what the Type-R/S suspensions have to offer.

And of course, a skilled driver in an OEM setup is going to smoke a novice in a Type-R setup every time out. The Type-R/S setups are really designed for drivers who can take advantage of them. Most NSX owners are simply not at that skill level. These setups can make mistakes seem less worse but in order to really extract the speed out of the setup one needs to have the skills.

The Type-R setup is better than 99% of all aftermarket setups for the NSX. It's that good. And it's actually driveable on the street.

I think it's just a matter of wanting the car to be the best it can be on the track. I know it is for me.

 

[NSXGMS]

but apparently it's poop compared to the gallardo (aka mortgage on wheels)

The Gallardo does handle very well but the ride is much harsher than an OEM NSX.

A CTSC NSX-R would have no problem keeping up or even overtaking a Gallardo on any track except maybe Monza or Indy :biggrin: . We've all seen the Motegi Battle. That was a stock NSX-R, albeit a much better driver, but it led the race nearly all the way against both the Gallardo and the Murci.

 

[BD]

I started this thread.....and I think my NSX is a fantastic handling car. So it seems you guys think so too. I guess I was wondering why it seems so many of you have aimed for Zanardi or NSX-R handling. I think one thing I forget is how many of you track your cars. I don't expect to do that and I value the outstanding balance of handling AND comfort built-in to the NSX.

I know there are some complex turns I can take comfortably at 70+ MPH in the NSX and it blows my mind!

Because Type R suspension is made for the NSX as OEM equipement. I can't live with my self for not having the best available OEM part on my baby:smile:

 

[Rennphile]

5. Flex is acutally very minimal. With stiffer suspension, you will feel less flex.

I question this. With a stiffer set up you could expect more deflection in the chassis and therefore you would feel more flex, not less. This is one of the reasons that convertibles are often tuned with a softer set up so as to help mask the reduction in chassis rigidity.