wrong place at the wrong time??

[cfra7]

I think that asking to close a thread is uncalled for. It happened and we are discussing it. I take my NSX to the track at least once a year. What will people be requesting next? Perhaps they want us to destroy evidence of what happened? This is a public site.

I'm sorry that any cars were damaged. We had this same issue in our club a few years back in that we had an accident and the insurance company logged onto our web site and found that the guy was participating in time trials. The insurance company refused to fix the car because of their "no competition" clause. Now the competition section of our web site is password protected along the most other portions of the site in order to protect our member privacy.

 

[JaySpec7]

Just want to say thanks to everyone for all their support via PM's, posts and emails...

At this point there is no need to close this thread since it is everywhere.

Obviously, there is nothing for me to hide as it's clear that the driver in the Evo lost control and totaled our cars. I'm not out there to squeeze a body kit or supercharger out of this or anything.... I just want what I lost at it's market value.

I'd definitely love to share more, but I'd rather leave it at this for now.

Again THANK YOU for all your support!!

j.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

First of all let me introduce myself since I've never been on this forum before...I'm Michelle and I was the instructor in the Audi who was videotaping the Evo. I got in the Audi at the end of the day and had no idea that these two jokers were friends. I also didn't realize that this guy was videotaping...my mistake. But as for grabbing the wheel, I was trying to get the guy to stay on track and go to the left since the accident was on the right. Obviously he did not listen to me. Once he pulled off the track into the grass, I was instructing him to go to the right, back down pit row and get out of the way. I was not encouraging him to vidoe tape this...if you only had sound, you would know better.

As for staging the cars in this area...I have been going to Pocono for years with cars and with bikes and all the clubs stage in that area at the end of the session to prepare for the next session. I have never seen or heard an incident like this happening there or even a forecasting of a possible problem...obviously this will all be changing now. But PDA is a great organization and run good safe events. It's unfortunately but you can't predict what stupid things people are do next.

This is taken from the Elise forum, I was suspecting the instructor was trying to stay away from the accident scene as for grabbing the wheel comment... AS we all know people drive towards whatever they look at, and the driver seems just did that (Conciously or subconciously)... I also pretty ticked off from the editing and the stupid music the guy put on. oh well... Good Thing for the instrutor who took sometime to explain things.

 

[OneRedNSX]

Id like to see what happens when the tables are turned! The gentleman who's NSX was hit has asked it to be closed, CLOSE THE THREAD! Thought we are supposed to be a family and help each other, where's the love:wink:

When the tables are turned?

haha. I know what my insurance policy states and does not state. I also know how to read the wavers that you sign at the track. When the tables are turned, it will be my fault for having the car there without 'proper insurance' if that is the case. I also wouldn't care about pics and video on the internet that helps my case against the person that hit my car because if I didn't have the proper insurance to be covered I sure as hell wouldn't be filing a claim, I would be taking the evo driver to court and want all the evidence i could get to do so.

So again, aside from the 'gentlemen asking for it to be closed' what reason is there to do so. Are you going to get on every board and site where the pic / video has spread to and do the same thing?

 

[DocL]

...So again, aside from the 'gentlemen asking for it to be closed' what reason is there to do so. Are you going to get on every board and site where the pic / video has spread to and do the same thing?

Remember the "Star Wars Kid"? I don't think he was too successful in getting his video of the net.

 

[newtyp]

Hello everyone,

Jay is a good friend of mine, as we have known each other for a looong time. It’s an unfortunate incident and I’m very happy that no one was hurt. And, though its next to an impossible task to remove everything on the WWW, as I have sent various emails to all the sites who had posted pictures and one video, it still helps to close discussion on prime and to other forums to pay respect to a situation that still needs to be legally processed and can easily happen to all of us at any track venue either as a participant or spectator.

Thanks in advance for everyone's support in understanding the present difficulties. Lets wish Jay a swift and positive resolution to this unfortunate incident.

Ken

 

[The Kid]

When the tables are turned?

haha. I know what my insurance policy states and does not state. I also know how to read the wavers that you sign at the track. When the tables are turned, it will be my fault for having the car there without 'proper insurance' if that is the case. I also wouldn't care about pics and video on the internet that helps my case against the person that hit my car because if I didn't have the proper insurance to be covered I sure as hell wouldn't be filing a claim, I would be taking the evo driver to court and want all the evidence i could get to do so.

So again, aside from the 'gentlemen asking for it to be closed' what reason is there to do so. Are you going to get on every board and site where the pic / video has spread to and do the same thing?

Are you looking for a fight or something? If you know insurance doesnt cover anything track related, why continue to add wood to the fire? The more this is discussed, the worse it is. Im not going to get on every forum, I dont even know Jay, I was just trying to help and be a good person. Remind me if im ever drowning not to ask you for help Also, it doesnt cost you anything to be nice and what goes around, comes around:wink:

 

[OneRedNSX]

Are you looking for a fight or something? If you know insurance doesnt cover anything track related, why continue to add wood to the fire? The more this is discussed, the worse it is. Im not going to get on every forum, I dont even know Jay, I was just trying to help and be a good person. Remind me if im ever drowning not to ask you for help Also, it doesnt cost you anything to be nice and what goes around, comes around:wink:

nope, just waiting for somebody to give me a good reason why it shouldn't be discussed. seems to me like a good lesson in making sure you really are prepaired for the track when you go. you are the one that seems unable to give any sort of good reason as to why it is such a horrible subject and try to relate it to things like drowning and over exaderated stupidity. how is it worse the more it is discussed supposedly...? You can't tell me. All you can do is keep saying 'what goes around comes around.' But ya know what? I don't really care because I make sure I am prepaired for that so I don't have to worry about what is going to happen :wink:

 

[The Kid]

But ya know what? I don't really care because I make sure I am prepaired for that so I don't have to worry about what is going to happen :wink:

How can you be prepared for an accident? The NSX wasnt even moving I think your just an idiot and there is no need to further this moronic conversation. Dude, its 2006 and your still rockin' MOMO rims. Enough said:biggrin: Chrome?:tongue:

 

[docjohn]

I don't think any one of us would be prepared for a car plowing into us as we wait in the staging area to get onto the track I have plenty of experience at the east course and have instructed for pda,and I can assure you that this incident could not have been predicted to ever happen,but it did so, in the future clubs will have to take this into account for future events

 

[GreggMarkarian]

Dude, its 2006 and your still rockin' MOMO rims. Enough said:biggrin: Chrome?:tongue:

Real nice Kid. Now who's throwing fuel on the fire? You say you want to end this thread, but then you keep responding to this guy.

 

[The Kid]

Real nice Kid. Now who's throwing fuel on the fire? You say you want to end this thread, but then you keep responding to this guy.

I know, I know:biggrin:

 

[MoogieBoogie]

If insurance doesn't cover it, I'm sure he could go sue the guy who plowed into him.

 

[OLDE GUY]

.....I think your just an idiot and there is no need to further this moronic conversation.....:biggrin: Chrome?:tongue:

KID, why is it that you so frequently get into arguements on NSXPrime and start hurling personal insults??? :biggrin:

Do you really think that the "Smilies" take the ZZING out of your comments and make them acceptable?? :wink:

Maybe your site name says it all: KID :tongue:

 

[The Kid]

KID, why is it that you so frequently get into arguements on NSXPrime and start hurling personal insults??? :biggrin:

Do you really think that the "Smilies" take the ZING out of your comments and make them acceptable?? :wink:

Maybe your site name says it all: KID :tongue:

I stated that this shouldnt be discussed here becuase it was still an insurance issue and I figured maybe it would help. I was trying to be a nice guy but that goes to show you. The personal insult wasnt needed, my bad.

Overall Ive only had a few tiff's here on Prime and consider it all in good fun. Thats the allure of a web forum, to voice your opinion whether right, wrong, or indifferent.

The smiley indicates im only messing around and shouldnt be construded as harmful or demeaning.

 

[NSXLuvr]

I don't think any one of us would be prepared for a car plowing into us as we wait in the staging area to get onto the track

I guess the cat's out of the bag. So we can try to learn something from this unfortunate incident.

DocJohn,

I understand what you are saying but I have to disagree with your comment. I would NEVER, repeat NEVER be on a track where there isn't a barrier/pit wall or something that separates the track from the "paddock". So theorectically if you only went to tracks that were safer and went to a DE run by PCA or equivalent safety orientated organizations then this incident would be much less likely.

MSR houston is a new track. Initially its didn't have a true pit lane. Until it was build I refused to go to the track. The DE groups in Texas raised this issue with the management and the owners agreed and modified the track to make it safer.

 

[ak]

I'm with KID. We all know the risks we are taking by going to the track events but that doesn't mean it hurts when your car is wrecked..esp when you are just sitting around. Then getting the aftermath pictures plastered all over the net. It's none of our business if the ower of the car does not want to talk about it and we should leave it alone. "you should have known better" type comment doesn't really help and only makes you look like a jerk.

 

[docjohn]

I could not agree more!A proper race track should have ample protection from just this sort of incident.Part of the problem with pocono is that the infield can be divided into 3 seperate courses,the only true scca sanctioned config is the tri oval with north infield,ergo all the other configs used by clubs are not up to all safety regs my point above was an atempt to temper the response of a previos poster with my experience at pocono east.The lesson I have learned from this and from DE in general is that however rare an event is felt to be,it can happen,I tend to err on the side of cavelier,bassing my behavior on the odds so to speak.In that way I must accept the results whatever they may be.In this case you can certainly say that gridding cars where clubs do on the east course is wrong.

 

[nsxtasy]

If insurance doesn't cover it, I'm sure he could go sue the guy who plowed into him.

Don't count on it. At most track events, every participant (and every attendee) signs a waiver stating (among other things) that he will not sue the organizers and other participants, and holds them harmless of any liability.

Anyone can sue anyone for anything, of course, but signed waivers make such cases more difficult to win.

theorectically if you only went to tracks that were safer and went to a DE run by PCA or equivalent safety orientated organizations then this incident would be much less likely.

This statement implies that the organization running this event is not safety oriented but I don't think that this is necessarily true. We don't know for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if other organizations, including PCA, run events at this track in which the exact same incident could have occurred in the exact same way.

Of course, as docjohn points out, now the track will probably go putting some armco up to prevent a recurrence (which they should have done long ago, IMHO).

 

[OLDE GUY]

As others have mentioned, I think that the 2nd take home point is be careful of which DE groups you drive with. I am not familiar with PDA but I do know that in the SouthEast the Porsche Club and BMW Club offer high quality Drivers' Education events. Unfortunately a Novice may not be aware of the difference in the quality of DE education.

I have occasionally attended NASA and CHIN but I don't think that they offer the same high level of education for the Novice (I) and Beginner (II) Groups. And they certainly don't offer the excellent instructor schools that BMW and Porsche offer. Of course, NASA and CHIN will say that they use many of the same instructors. But still there is a distinct and palpable difference in the quality level of the entire weekend between the groups. Porsche and BMW definitely emphasize education and safety more, especially BMW.

Perhaps NASA and CHIN are fine for very experienced drivers - a lot of track time. But I particularly don't like CHIN's policy of "Open Track" - letting Beginners run with the most advanced, fastest drivers. It is not ideal for either the Beginner or the advanced driver although it offers more track time for both. They seem to get away with taking this risk but I personally think that it is only a matter of time before it creates problems.

The Novice and Beginner drivers are well advised to stick with groups that emphasize education and safety rather than seat time.

 

[nsxtasy]

There are a lot of different ways in which safety can be encouraged and enforced. For example, there are some groups which don't require instructors inside the car, even for first timers on the track, and I consider that the most unsafe practice of all. One of the biggest determinants of safety is not the rules, but how they are enforced, and how the group deals with behavior that is unsafe - specifically, whether they review unsafe behavior with the perpetrators and take appropriate sanctions against them.

I've participated in events held by all the groups mentioned here except PDA. In terms of safety, the safest events I have attended are those held by the BMW CCA and by Chin Motorsports, and their unsurpassed record on safety bears this statement out. NASA has a racing focus, even in its HPDE run groups, and I've seen some unsafe behavior at their events that was not appropriately dealt with, IMHO. From what I have seen, PCA's event structure and practices are similar to BMW CCA, but they tend to get more egocentric drivers with high-horsepower cars who get into trouble. And I am not trying to criticize PCA by pointing this out; they do what they can to enforce safety. Let's face it, no group holding high-speed events on racetracks can prevent an idiot from doing something stupid, no matter how well they run their events.

 

[the nsxnut]

I have occasionally attended NASA and CHIN but I don't think that they offer the same high level of education for the Novice (I) and Beginner (II) Groups. And they don't offer the excellent instructor schools that BMW and Porsche offer. Of course, NASA and CHIN will say that they use many of the same instructors. But still there is a distinct and palpable difference in the quality level of the entire weekend between the groups. Porsche and BMW definitely emphasize education and safety more, especially BMW.

Perhaps NASA and CHIN are fine for very experienced drivers - a lot of track time. But I particularly don't like CHIN's policy on "Open Track" - letting Beginners run with the most advanced, fastest drivers. They seem to get away with taking this risk but I personally think that it is only a matter of time before it creates problems.

The Novice and Beginner driver is well advised to stick with groups that emphasize education and safety rather than seat time.

...Hmmm, that's not a very accurate characterization of Chin Motorsports events. There is actually a higher standard of safety, because the open track format reduces the deadlines that are common to a run-group style schedule. The rushing around that is necessitated by 25 minute run groups creates a sense of urgency that is a distraction to drivers. A 2-day event at Sebring was just completed, with participation by over 150 drivers, and there were ZERO incidents. The only contact was tires on the pavement. :biggrin: Statistically, there are fewer incidents on average at CMS events than typical PCA/BMWCCA style track days.

You are correct that there are many PCA and BMWCCA instructors that regularly instruct for CMS. They love our formats, and keep coming back to our events. To comment that the level of instruction is not as good suggests that you've never received instruction at a CMS event. In fact, it's better, because the student ultimately spends more time with the instructor, and the instructor is less harrassed because of our practice of assigning only one student. Many drivers comment, regularly, that 'this was the best track day I've ever done'.

Of course, some drivers will always be comfortable only in the rigid setting of a run group event (and recognize that, no matter what group a driver is in, there are faster and slower cars within the group). That's fine... you can't please all the people all the time. But, if that's your style, don't make the mistake of trying to suggest that it is appropriate for all enthusiasts.

DISCLOSURE: I am, indeed, the General Manager of Chin Motorsports. We have done over 90 events, at race tracks throughout the eastern USA, since 1999, and are now one of the leading providers of track time in the country. OLDE GUY participated in one single day, 3 years ago, as a solo driver. And, we are constantly evolving, and have implemented several new formats, that are track specific. Feel free to review our website

ON TOPIC: <edit: I'll not comment in regard to choices made affecting the Pocono track event.>

 

[Tony Montoya]

I live in an apt block on a fairly busy downtown street, four lanes one way with outside lanes for parking and a 50kpm limit. The sidewalk to the door is about 30 feet wide and there are concrete pillars that support the over-hanging parking garage around 10 feet from the road spaced out evenly. You would think it was safe to walk down this sidewalk and I use it everyday. One evening I came out and there was a nice 3-series BMW upside down, totalled, and around 3 feet from the front door. I still use the sidewalk as it's mostly safe.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

An announced "open track" will not bother me as I would know in advance that I'm sharing the track with novices and will take extra precautions.

The one that bothers me most are people that classify themselves as advance or instructors when they have no skill nor the speed to be there. In Advance group we have some level of expertise expectancy. We assume everyone in the group knows what they are doing and pretty much have similar skills and speed. What happened to me before was a guy in a Porsche squeezed me and we touched on the straight away because he didn't watch his mirror and see me passing him. This is on a straightaway! Maybe because he didn't expect me to be able to pass him with ease since he drives a race prep Porsche while I drive a lowly civic.

I've seen this in instructor group as well. It is true that you don't have to be great driver to be an instructor. But you have to be decently fast. If you can't even drive your car close to the limit and knows how your car behave at the limit, how can you teach others?

As others have mentioned, I think that the 2nd take home point is be careful of which DE groups you drive with. I am not familiar with PDA but I do know that in the SouthEast the Porsche Club and BMW Club offer high quality Drivers' Education events. Unfortunately a Novice may not be aware of the difference in the quality of DE education.

I have occasionally attended NASA and CHIN but I don't think that they offer the same high level of education for the Novice (I) and Beginner (II) Groups. And they certainly don't offer the excellent instructor schools that BMW and Porsche offer. Of course, NASA and CHIN will say that they use many of the same instructors. But still there is a distinct and palpable difference in the quality level of the entire weekend between the groups. Porsche and BMW definitely emphasize education and safety more, especially BMW.

Perhaps NASA and CHIN are fine for very experienced drivers - a lot of track time. But I particularly don't like CHIN's policy on "Open Track" - letting Beginners run with the most advanced, fastest drivers. It is not ideal for either the Beginner or the advanced driver although it offers more track time for both. They seem to get away with taking this risk but I personally think that it is only a matter of time before it creates problems.

The Novice and Beginner drivers are well advised to stick with groups that emphasize education and safety rather than seat time.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

An announced "open track" will not bother me as I would know in advance that I'm sharing the track with novices and will take extra precautions.

The one that bothers me most are people that classify themselves as advance or instructors when they have no skill nor the speed to be there. In Advance group we have some level of expertise expectancy. We assume everyone in the group knows what they are doing and pretty much have similar skills and speed. What happened to me before was a guy in a Porsche squeezed me and we touched on the straight away because he didn't watch his mirror and see me passing him. This is on a straightaway! Maybe because he didn't expect me to be able to pass him with ease since he drives a race prep Porsche while I drive a lowly civic.

Often times I think it all depends how the run groups work out that day for the event host more than drivers intentionally mis-classifying themselves at the start of the day. Some days their are so many novices or so many advanced and depending on the hardware brought out- the groups often don't divy up very well and some drivers might well find themselves out of place after the first few sessions. The key is to speak up. I've been in C group at Audi day and literally bored- could not warm up my brakes in traffic driving at 4/10ths on crappy tires behind station wagons, but then found myself entirelly out-classed by race prepped 911's and great drivers with R Compounds in B group runs. As we all know, sometimes it is hard to get a fit.

Someone may be too fast in group C but too slow in group B or same B to A and it's never ideal. I find it rare at events for people to get bumped out between run groups either after the day starts unless it is a really obvious issue. Also, some may be slow at the start and build up speed through-out the day making it seem to be a non-issue to event staff.

I've seen this in instructor group as well. It is true that you don't have to be great driver to be an instructor. But you have to be decently fast. If you can't even drive your car close to the limit and knows how your car behave at the limit, how can you teach others?

I agree, and at some events the promote the advanced guys to instructors to ensure everyone is paired up- sometimes for good and sometimes for bad.

While some of the local clubs have the issue I think your drilling on more than others, all in all I really count ourselves lucky up here in the NW as far as instructors go. All of the local clubs (BMW, Lotus, Audi, Alfa, etc...) have at least one great driver, if not more. John Ewald, Hugh Golden, Don Kitch, many of them have 20+ years experience and many have serious racing credentials up to including pro racing wins at Rolex.

Suffice to say, when Hugh tells you he was behind you and you "should be in 6th through that section" when your in 5th your best to take his advice as gospel.

Often times the clubs have lapping days first, and "driving instruction" for insurance requirements. I think if your not using the talent that is there, and drawing from it- your missing the whole point of HPDE's.