Help - front axle or suspension off by 1/4"

[vf2ss]

Awhile back I had noticed that my driver side front tire looked like it was sticking out just a tiny bit more than my passenger side front with respect to the fender. It was so tiny I thought it was just an illusion but I finally decided to take off the wheels and take some measurements and sure enough...

Distance from fender well to edge of rotor - passenger side 13.25"
<img src="http://www.vf2ss.com/transfer/quarteroff/passenger_rotor.JPG" border="0"/>

Distance from fender well to edge of rotor - driver side 13.5"
<img src="http://www.vf2ss.com/transfer/quarteroff/driver_rotor.JPG" border="0"/>

Wanting to check if it had something to do with the rotor size I checked the distance from fender well to edge of suspension - passenger side 10.75"
<img src="http://www.vf2ss.com/transfer/quarteroff/passenger_susp.JPG" border="0"/>

distance from fender well to edge of suspension - driver side 11.0"
<img src="http://www.vf2ss.com/transfer/quarteroff/driver_susp.JPG" border="0"/>

Is this requiring a suspension adjustment, camber adjustment or something else or is this within an acceptable margin of human error due to being a hand assembled vehicle? The car drives straight and I've had no issues whatsoever, however, it is somewhat noticeable if you look closely since my wheel offsets are flush w/fender. Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[enkrypt3d]

It could be just a worn bushing on the upper control arm.... worth looking into... its just a guess tho! That is really weird.

 

[goldNSX]

0.25'' is not worth it. There are tolerances on every car.

 

[pgilliam1]

Fuggetaboudit. Driveability and body aerodynamics shouldn't be affected by it. Now if the car was leaning, thereby affecting body roll, straightline braking, etc., it would be a different story.
Happy Motoring!

 

[vf2ss]

I see both of your points, and as far as drivability is concerned, I'm not particularly concerned about it unless I hear otherwise. However, this can make quite a bit of difference in offsets...it could be the difference of let's say going with +35 or +40 in which case you wouldn't want to buy two different offsets for your front wheels

I'll look into that bushing. Any other thoughts or opinions are welcome.

 

[enkrypt3d]

The wheel opening, fender lip, or fender well is not a control point for your vehicle's body or suspension. Using it as a point of reference is of no value in this pursuit.
Doing so is a waste of time and the data you collect doing so is neither useful or relevant in the determination of the correct geometry of your vehicle's suspension or structure.

geez take it easy on the guy.... you could have just said his fenders are probably not straight rather than lambasting him...

But yes you should be measuring from the frame rail just behind the hub not the body panels which could be uneven...

 

[LJSB]

I did not lambaste him whatsoever. The fenders being or not being straight would have no relevance to the data as well. Good luck with that.
Incidentally you don't reference the suspension from the rail either.

 

[enkrypt3d]

I did not lambaste him whatsoever. Good luck.

Incidentally you don't refernce the suspension from the rail either.

well you're just telling him he's doing it all wrong and shouldn't even try without offering any advice... great job.

 

[socalx]

pbassjo
with this and other threads you do seem to be getting increasingly frustrated as you give advice. Just my 02.. not trying to start a debate.

 

[LJSB]

pbassjo
with this and other threads you do seem to be getting increasingly frustrated as you give advice. Just my 02.. not trying to start a debate.

Ok. Thanks.

 

[enkrypt3d]

Ok. Thanks.

Haha wow. Didn't think I could scare you off so easily... Don't run on my account. The guy clearly wants his questions answered... if you disagree with my statements thats fine... feel free to add your own.... "You're doing it all wrong and good luck with finding out the real problem" approach doesn't seem too effective does it? :biggrin:

 

[LJSB]

You are quoting me incorrectly and out of context.

When I said "good luck with that" I was referring to YOU and your suggestion that would have been better to attribute the OP's concerns to "fenders are probably not straight" than what I did post. Again I thought my post was factual and did not intend it to be personal at all and can't see where I was.

Nonetheless, in response to your accusation of me lambasting the OP I have deleted my post.

Socalx made the innocuous observation that my posts here on Prime seem increasingly frustrated in their tenor and it is to that point I bow out of this thread. I feel I should think and reflect upon that for a while before I feel comfortable posting advice in the future.
You did not "scare me off".:wink:
Bye Bye.

 

[vf2ss]

Okay got it, this explains how my mom got this photo of me when I was a kid...
<img src="http://www.vf2ss.com/transfer/quarteroff/wrong.jpg" border="0"/>
I don't feel too railed :wink:, I'm learning and I really appreciate all the input. :smile:

Anyways, I'm just trying to figure out what's going on when I look straight down. I tried my best to get the same angle and just a sliver of the wheel and from what I understand, the thought is that the "quarter inch" is possibly a result of just the fenders?

<img src="http://www.vf2ss.com/transfer/quarteroff/pass_side.JPG" border="0"/>

<img src="http://www.vf2ss.com/transfer/quarteroff/driverside.JPG" border="0"/>

btw - when the wheels were off and on the ground facing up, I measured from the ground to the back side of the wheel and the measurements are dead on but thought I would check that as well.

What's next, measure from the frame rail behind the hub, adjust the fender, I know 'ignore it' is also an option but like I mentioned earlier, this is practically the equivalent of a 5mm spacer? I may well end up just ignoring it but it still doesn't resolve my curiosity as to what's causing this.

 

[DocL]

I'm not in the automotive repair business, however when looking at these pcitures and having a little knowledge of cars, I'd say the frame rail is bent.

 

[vf2ss]

All I can offer in response to that is that I would be at a total loss as to how. When I picked it up from the original owner (a retired physician) about 5yrs ago who kept it mint and stock, he attested that their had been zero accidents and I have no reason not to believe him (and several as to why I should). It had 28K mi on it at the time and since then I've added about 14K mi and I've never curbed the front, tracked it, hit a bad pothole, let alone wreck it, etc. so I can't figure how the frame rail could have been bent.

 

[DocL]

Is it possible that the rotor isn't fully seated on the hub? It's possible that the previous owner did hit a curb and because it can still be aligned he didn't think there was any unseen damage. The issue here is that it seems that the entire wheel sticking out and the first way to determine why would be to replace the entire suspension.

Did you put on aftermarket wheels? Maybe the offest is wrong on one of them? I'm just guessing and have no intentions of implying the car was ever in a wreck.

 

[Zishan]

Could it be camber? Any suspension mods?

Or something bent?

Good luck,


BTW, I think there is a manual that shows how to measure the distance on various places on the body, frame, and maybe suspension. It's for collision repair/measurements. Search might turn that up and it may help you find better measuring reference points.

 

[vf2ss]

Is it possible that the rotor isn't fully seated on the hub? It's possible that the previous owner did hit a curb and because it can still be aligned he didn't think there was any unseen damage. The issue here is that it seems that the entire wheel sticking out and the first way to determine why would be to replace the entire suspension.

That's good to know about the alignment and yes I had thought about this, hence why the measurements (although using wrong reference points) and be that as it may, my photos did show the supposed 1/4" off occurred even before the rotor assembly...but this is most likely irrelevant due to how it was measured.

Did you put on aftermarket wheels? Maybe the offest is wrong on one of them? I'm just guessing and have no intentions of implying the car was ever in a wreck.

Yes, I understand and yes, aftermarket wheels (Prodrives). I did check that the hubcentric ring was seated correctly (which it was) and checked the distance measurement of the offsets (see earlier post) while laying them down on the ground using that as a reference point (hope that's concrete...get it?) and yes, they were exactly the same.

Could it be camber?

That would be good to know...can it be this and just require an adjustment? Also...No on the suspension mods and I sure hope nothin's bent!

BTW, I think there is a manual that shows how to measure the distance on various places on the body, frame, and maybe suspension. It's for collision repair/measurements. Search might turn that up and it may help you find better measuring reference points.

Thanks! I'll look for that.

Back to the fender speculation...could it be that when the fender was formed and hammered out by a human (if that is indeed what happened) it just ended up being 1/4" too inwards and just needs a little "flaring" outwards? Is that putting a band-aid on a potentially fatal problem? I don't know how valid this next bit is either, but visually I can see that my fender's bolts and washers look as if the oem paint seal has never been broken or removed. But perhaps this can be easily replicated if for some reason it had been removed and repainted...just an observation.

 

[Zishan]

Back to the fender speculation...could it be that when the fender was formed and hammered out by a human (if that is indeed what happened) it just ended up being 1/4" too inwards and just needs a little "flaring" outwards? Is that putting a band-aid on a potentially fatal problem? I don't know how valid this next bit is either, but visually I can see that my fender's bolts and washers look as if the oem paint seal has never been broken or removed. But perhaps this can be easily replicated if for some reason it had been removed and repainted...just an observation.

Your fenders look fine. 1/4 would likely be noticeable. And by the sounds of it, they have never been removed. I'm guessing it's something internal....suspension....somethings bent..

 

[LJSB]

Hi,
I certainly don't want your ANYONE to think I'm lambasting you or frustrated so again, I will give you this advice.
This time I'll have this cute little fellow tell you:

The wheel opening, fender lip, or fender well is not a control point for your vehicle's body or suspension. Using it as a point of reference is of no value in this pursuit.
Doing so is a waste of time and the data you collect doing so is neither useful or relevant in the determination of the correct geometry of your vehicle's suspension or structure.

Now in your post you said " The car drives straight and I've had no issues whatsoever".

If you are really worried about this 1/4" there are three things you can do.
1) Get a computerized wheel alignment.This is best way to verify the state of your suspension's geometry. If it's fine and you still have the quarter of a inch ...and I think you will, go to number three.

2)Find a repair shop that has computer based measuring that can give length, width and height(3d) of each control point using increments of 1mm. Other than a computerized wheel alignment this is the ONLY way to correctly assess and evaluate the geometry of your vehicle's structure or suspension.

3) Since the left, passengers side is 1/4" different then the right. Have the panels moved over about 3mm and both sides will be even. Believe it or not this is something you probably should not do. Fine adjustments are best left to the Pro's if you really want it done right.

4) You could also, forget about it and not worry. OK?:smile:

 

[vf2ss]

...that baby sure is cute :smile:

fair enough...I'll start with #1...I have been wanting to lower it with some Teins that I have...which will then require computerized alignment!

Will post results when it's done.

 

[LJSB]

Tein? Coil springs or adjustable coilovers?
If they are coilovers let me know. I'll pm you about basic ride height setting for the Teins, where to start and how much front to rear rake you'll want.

 

[vf2ss]

Tein? Coil springs or adjustable coilovers?

just the springs (S Tech) on oem shocks...why do u ask?

 

[LJSB]

If they are coilovers let me know. I'll pm you about basic ride height setting for the Teins, where to start and how much front to rear rake you'll want.

Dat's why

If you're not doing coilovers you won't need that info.

 

[vf2ss]

thanks.
(i'd replied before u'd edited :wink