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How long can the high used prices last?

DJ Iceman

DJ Iceman

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Redondo Beach, CA USA
As of today, there are still two brand-new 2020 NSXs listed for sale on cars.com. There are also fived used 2020s, and 44 other used ones 2017-2019. Asking prices range down to $109k for a 2017 with almost 42k miles with CCBs, CF engine cover, and interwoven wheels (so maybe $170k sticker).

I have to imagine that more and more will be coming off leases and hitting the used market. Given there isn't much demand for the NSX even new, I can't see there being huge pent-up demand for used ones. Yet those at Mannheim and BAT have been commanding impressively high prices, at least so far.

Why are the used prices holding up so well? If someone can get a brand-new one spec'ed exactly the way they want, with full factory warranty and no worries about what might have happened with the car before they owned it, for $30k+ off sticker without even trying... Well, is it that people can afford $110k but not $140k? Or they think the car is only worth $110k so that's all they're willing to pay?
 
Used car prices in general have been higher than usual during the pandemic. I am no automotive industry expert, but slowing in new car manufacturing and people holding on to their cars longer (so fewer cars available) have increased demand for used cars in general.

So....supply and demand.

In the case of the NSX, positive media exposure has also likely increased demand for used.
 
The "haters" have been predicting the collapse of NSX prices every month for the last 2 years due to the coming glut of lease returns .... Assuming the typical lease is 36 months, based on sales figures, the peak for lease returns and the collapse of prices would have happened between Oct 2020 and Jan of 2021 (or sooner with potential 24 month leases included). We are now past that period and prices for used examples seem to remain high and steady. 36 months ago this month there were 16 cars sold, and a whopping 5 more Apr of 2018. So, there is no flood of lease returns coming anytime soon in sufficient quantity to create this cratering of prices.

I am not sure what exactly is holding used prices steady, but could be dealers are less and less likely to deal lately as dealers may want to keep one on the floor to draw customers as a replacement may be difficult due to new car shortages, or more likely, the guys coming off lease are buying their cars back at residuals of =<$100K, when used prices are $130K+? And, the car is becoming more appreciated for what it is as time has passed. I do not have access to Mannheim prices, and do not have a clear picture of actual selling prices nationwide, but there are a lot of cars "listed" for sale at high asking prices. Most sellers likely do not HAVE to sell their cars and list high thinking I won't sell unless I get my asking price. So, if sellers stand firm, then guys who decide they want one either pay for a new one or pay the current asking price for the used ones. I would never sell my car for $100K or less. I would keep it until I die at that point..... And as was said above, it's a supply and demand thing.

FWIW, last I checked, there were 600+ C8 Corvettes for sale on autotrader , the majority of which are cars being bought on speculation to resell at a profit. Now there's a bubble destined to burst...
I have a friend who has access to and is planning to buy 3 thinking he'll sell each for a $20K+ profit. We'll see..... Chevrolet created a false demand due to the low base MSRP. Had they been smart and raised the MSRP by $20K, the wait lists would be lower and Chevrolet would have made that $20K+ profit instead of the speculators.

I paid $43K off sticker for my car in late 17'. Turns out buying new then instead of waiting for the bottom to fall out "someday" was the right decision.
 
DJ Iceman said:
... If someone can get a brand-new one spec'ed exactly the way they want, with full factory warranty and no worries about what might have happened with the car before they owned it, for $30k+ off sticker without even trying... Well, is it that people can afford $110k but not $140k? Or they think the car is only worth $110k so that's all they're willing to pay?
Click to expand...

Dealerships around my area refused to even acknowledge these discounts so a potential buyer definitely has to shop around to get the best deal. Secondly, I think $20K AFS rebate will only apply for those who can qualify for financing - which I presume most potential buyers should be able to do assuming they have decent credit.
 
"Why are the used prices holding up so well? If someone can get a brand-new one spec'ed exactly the way they want, with full factory warranty and no worries about what might have happened with the car before they owned it, for $30k+ off sticker without even trying... Well, is it that people can afford $110k but not $140k? Or they think the car is only worth $110k so that's all they're willing to pay?"

For me a NC1 was a bucket list item. I was one of those hoping for a drop in prices into the 90-100k area. I am not a track guy and likely will drive it for pleasure far less than 5000 miles/year. I had a 1991 NA1 and loved that car but would have liked more power and for me the NC1 does that. I was looking for a 1 owner car with between 10-20k miles on it and the longer the existing warranty , the better. I wanted a 1 owner car because while I think the NC1 is a reliable supercar, I have seen/heard some stories like DocL's where electronic gremlins cause much frustration. Therefore 3000 mile 3 owner cars scared me. I sifted through the carfaxes for warranty work done on possible purchases. I am OCD so any car I would buy would need color correction and PPF done. All this comes down to what we are willing to spend to scratch our itch. Plus in my state, if I buy from a dealer I pay a retail or use tax of another 6.5% on top of my negotiated price. Buying from a private party my use tax is capped at $1500. So buying used from a private party saved me another the majority of the $9100 on top of the 140k estimated new price. I did buy a 2018 with over 2 years bumper to bumper warranty left within my mileage parameters for a price lower than any of the current prices being offered now 5 months after my buy. I am happy with my purchase and in the end that's all I care about. Itch scratched!
 
While I'm happy with the seemingly high prices, I'm perplexed. The auction prices at Mecum, BAT and others just make no sense to me. The prices cars are bringing are just insane..... I just have a hard time believing the hammer prices. But I still take auction prices with a grain of salt. Lots of smoke and mirrors at auctions. Maybe the fact that the pandemic kept people with above average means from travelling and spending, and one way to spend was to buy a classic/collector car online sitting at your desk? Or maybe guys think, the virus could kill me next week so I'm going to buy that car now before I die?? Hard to fathom how much wealth is in the world I guess..... Or maybe lots of cheap credit? And BTW, I did not buy my car as an investment, just for pleasure, and for better or for worse.....

And yes, I would rather spend the extra money on a new car rather than a used one, so the higher prices for used again, don't make a lot of sense.
 
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Used hellcats are listed for more than new hellcats. The line has been shut down for the last 5 months. Retooling and then covid impact’s and now chips.

Zero discounts being offered

The entire used car market is going to look like the pricing and value of the R35 shortly imho.

Think it’s hard to buy a sports car, go to a truck lot. They are empty. Completely empty.

Simple supply and demand at its best.

AWD M5s have gone up 12k average in the last 45 days.

What are you guys leaving the dealership for with a fully loaded car? May pick up another or swap this one out or give it to a kid.
 
I can attest to the HC shortage...my delivery has been pushed back 2 months...
 
Super cars are a specialty vehicle that appeals to a small group of buyers. People generally want value as well as uniqueness. The NSX is an unusual car given its hybrid technology. When you look at other similar type cars they are more expensive. I suggest that a used 2017 or 2018 is essentially the same as the newer 2019,2020 and 2021 NSXs. You are getting a newer car with a 2020, but most NSXs are not driven heavily and therefore are still relatively new.

So if you find the color and options you want there is no penalty for buying used as there might be for a different brand. I bought my car from an exotic car dealer. It was the cheapest car he had.

My MSRP was over $206k and had everything I would have wanted. It still had over two years of warranty left and only had 4200 miles on the car. I thought of it as a demo. I paid cash at $140k which I thought was a great deal. I would have had to search to find that color and those options elsewhere. No one had that same color combo for sale within a reasonable distance.

Even if a local dealer had the car new at $165k, why would I spend more money to get what I liked. NSXs are built like German S.H. The guy who sold it to the dealer purchased a MC 720S. I spoke to him the other day and he remarked that his car has been in for repairs a lot. He paid for an extended warranty out of fear of driving the car without one. He still spoke highly of his NSX.

Oh and not till after I bought the car did I find out from the previous owner that he had Eibach not only add the lowering springs but they installed one off sway bars front and rear. Also the owner had One of the Acura dealers who did the gas tank recall also install SOS Downpipes, and SOS wheel spacers. He also had the car ceramic coated. I knew there was a reason I was attracted to the car.
 
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When you are spending a lot of money for a novelty type of vehicle being able to see and touch it make a difference. I have owned probably 75 cars in my lifetime with 1/3 new from the dealer. So new is not as important as it might otherwise be. When I saw the car in their ad I liked it. When I actually saw it live I loved it and had to have it.

I collect Chronograph watches and they essentially all behave in a similar way. You can get a used Omega Seamaster in 18k gold and Titanium for around $4500. New back in 1980 was around $5500. They stopped making them 30 years ago. You can pay 10 times that much for a Rolex Daytona that is old but in excellent condition. Or you can buy an Apple Watch for $400 that is a 1000 times more accurate then a self winding mechanical chronograph. There is not always a rhyme or reason for what a product will sell for.
 
Some marketing helps

Ferrari shows their current F1 drivers with their hot new car, the SF 90 (regular and track editions I believe were included in the pictures)

Customers see themselves as the young, good looking race car drivers and eat up the built slots for the SF 90

I couldn't recall seeing Mad Max driving a Gen 2 so I did quick search

Here he is in 2020 showing up with a Gen 2, but wearing a tux, not really on point for the purpose of the car and years after the launch of the car

https://acuraconnected.com/2020/12/18/snapshot-max-verstappen-arrives-in-a-honda-nsx/
 
Bricks and Bio said:
Some marketing helps

Ferrari shows their current F1 drivers with their hot new car, the SF 90 (regular and track editions I believe were included in the pictures)

Customers see themselves as the young, good looking race car drivers and eat up the built slots for the SF 90

I couldn't recall seeing Mad Max driving a Gen 2 so I did quick search

Here he is in 2020 showing up with a Gen 2, but wearing a tux, not really on point for the purpose of the car and years after the launch of the car

https://acuraconnected.com/2020/12/18/snapshot-max-verstappen-arrives-in-a-honda-nsx/
Click to expand...

That is interesting. As you note those with the funds (average Ferrari new car purchaser is in the million dollar a year income demographic) They can afford to purchase their cars. In order to get in line to purchase to your specification requires that you have previously purchased from the Ferrari Dealership other cars over a period of time. They want to sell to those who value the car and its legacy. The NSX is not in the same league. That is ok by me. As Docjohn noted the NSX appeals to the nerds who appreciate the technology, but also demand reliability.
 
drmanny3 said:
As Docjohn noted the NSX appeals to the nerds who appreciate the technology, but also demand reliability.
Click to expand...


awww you should'nt have...:wink:
 
Every supercar and hypercar mfg has to promote

Honda kind of went with limited social media and test drive support and then fell into discounting for the NSX

Ferrari is not immune from problems.

McLaren has been attacking them with vigor.

Ferrari does not have a current production road car with a CF tub.

Every McLaren has a CF tub.

Even Maserati is bringing a CF tub car that is cheaper than any Ferrari.

Lambo has a real head start in the SUV space and Ferrari will be playing catch up there.

Somehow Lambo is able to pass off retread Aventador based styling exercises for above a million $.

The Huracan is a competitive product but the Aventador position is debatable.

Aston should wake up with Mr. Stroll making decisions. They have an SUV but I can't believe anyone sees it as class leading.

Back to Ferrari, they stopped caring about volume limits.

The new Roma is purposely designed and marketed (first Ferrari in my recent memory to be promoted without the poseur shields) to first time Ferrari customers.

They made a huge effort toward improving ergonomics and electronics (maybe went to far).

I believe some dealerships will let you just walk in and order a car.

They really should also focus on having some new dealer stock units. Only happens now if a customer cancels late in the process.

They also don't really currently have have a car to go against a Speedtail or stuff like the upcoming MB project one.

I am glad the SF 90 is being well received, even though there are plenty of hybrid haters amongst the Ferrari owner family.
 
Bricks and Bio you make some interesting points. I was reading some posts over on the Facebook page for the NSX. There is a fellow who having owned his NSX for 4 years is now contemplating whether he should buy another brand supercar. So a whole bunch of owners have offered their 2 cents. In addition they talk about MC and Lambo. I was trying to figure out how I could copy it all and hide the names and post it here. They might get mad perhaps but it was an interesting discussion. The guy who is contemplating a Lambo admits that most other offerings don't hold up as well as the NSX. I think he is itching to try something different. He found the Lambo more difficult to drive and harder to see around. In a sense this was exciting? Reminds me of people who loved the fact that the early Porsche 911 was nicknamed the Widow Maker. As if that is a measure of a great car?
 
I did find that an interesting discussion, [MENTION=6718]drmanny3[/MENTION]. "Interesting" as in I realized some people live in a completely different reality than I do. The guy started off by saying he's had his NSX for four blissful, trouble-free years and loves it dearly but is feeling an "itch" to get something else that's basically the same performance-wise but gives up ergonomics, reliability, ease of service, etc. Then he posted a picture of his garage with something like six vehicles in it. The term "more money than sense" came to my mind...
 
Yea, you saw that...kind of funny. I hear you it does suggest that some march to the beat of way different drummers. I think a lot has to do with how you got your money. If it came early and easy you see things very differently then if you worked hard and slowly built it up. No judgement meant of course. We are all different and that is a good thing.
 
I don't like to generalize on what drives other folks to make decisions

I can understand someone wanting something different. And sound is a big deal in this category for most buyers.

In this space, since Honda only produces one supercar, you either have to get a GT-R or pay up big to find an LFA to get that Japanese ease of ownership.

If you are looking for more performance, you have to go European (not talking about American muscle).

In general, Lambo being part of VW is not building unstable stuff. I wouldn't be afraid of a Huracan.

Ferrari is over optimized product and that leads to issues, plus their new electronics Roma and SF 90) may not be fully baked.

McLaren is like, I accept warning lights, odds and ends issues and if I buy one and live more that 50 miles from a dealer, I better have a few other cars.

Porsche delivers the most performance/value to me but lacks the visual identity the Supercar cats crave.
 
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DJ Iceman said:
As of today, there are still two brand-new 2020 NSXs listed for sale on cars.com. There are also fived used 2020s, and 44 other used ones 2017-2019. Asking prices range down to $109k for a 2017 with almost 42k miles with CCBs, CF engine cover, and interwoven wheels (so maybe $170k sticker).

I have to imagine that more and more will be coming off leases and hitting the used market. Given there isn't much demand for the NSX even new, I can't see there being huge pent-up demand for used ones. Yet those at Mannheim and BAT have been commanding impressively high prices, at least so far.

Why are the used prices holding up so well? If someone can get a brand-new one spec'ed exactly the way they want, with full factory warranty and no worries about what might have happened with the car before they owned it, for $30k+ off sticker without even trying... Well, is it that people can afford $110k but not $140k? Or they think the car is only worth $110k so that's all they're willing to pay?
Click to expand...
That's all they're willing to pay. Champagne tastes on a beer budget (if you can have a beer budget on a supercar). Just like the gen1 buyers who want one for $30k. :rolleyes:

I dont have access to manheim, but I'm curious to see what the nouvelle blue went for last month. $189600 MSRP. Had damage on the carfax.
 
neuronbob said:
This statement in the article hits particularly hard:

"it is incredible that Samsung sells $56bn of semiconductors to others, and consumes $36bn of them itself, finds it may have to delay the launch of one of its own products".

Wow
Click to expand...

There was this comment in the article “Car manufacturers investing in tech-heavy electric vehicles, the boom in sales of TVs and home computers and launch of new games consoles and 5G-enabled mobile phones have all driven demand”.

That is a big issue. Back in the day when I called on the semiconductor industry General Motors was the largest semiconductor manufacturer in the world. All of it was captive (they only manufactured for internal consumption). Then everybody decided to delayer and focus on their core competencies. General Motors like everyone else divested of everything. In hind sight that was not the smartest thing to do. Consequently a lot was sold off and manufacturing moved offshore. Management thought the evil was direct labor instead of stupid management. Oh well......
 

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