V10 instead of V8? Why?

[BD]

The only production cars that have not lose in Value in the last twenty years are the following models:

Porsche 959
Ferrari F40/50
Mclaren F1

Everything else... nil

 

[BD]

Chumch

Of course Ferrari's drop in value, but I'd suggest if you compare a Ferrari's purchase price to it's used price , the ratio compares favourably with most other cars

I think most cars are depreciating assets for their first 25 years
Of course along the way some become collectible and may rise in value

One thing that seems constant in this area is the perception of exclusivity

I believe the NSX averaged about 1400 cars per year in it's lifespan
but they produced 8500 for the 1991 model year and 2225 for the 92

So on average the NSX is far more rare than a Ferrari but doesn't have the same auara of exclusivity
I believe this is due to the overproduction of the 91 and 92 model years

If Honda had capped production at 1500 per year I would argue that the NSX today would be seen as exclusive indeed, even though total sales over the 15
years would have been the same

We'll see if Honda falls into the same trap on the next generation NSX or if they have matured in their marketing approach

Jim

1999 550 Maranello Sold for 220 grand new. A used 1999 550 M with less than 15k miles will sell for 110 grand. 50% lost in 6 years. That not mentioning the extra 30 to 50 grand premium people paid over the MSRP.


1991 NSX MSRP: $60 grand, A used 1991 NSX with less than 15k miles go for $30 grand, give to take a few. That's 50% lost in 15 years!!!

Depreciation is far less than people think on a NSX.

NSX was killed not by lack of "emotion" but the crash of economy in 1992, many supercars that supposed to hit the market never made it.

Took GM 7 Years to sell only 6000 ZR1, that is what I call a marketing failure!!!

 

[TC]

1999 550 Maranello Sold for 220 grand new. A used 1999 550 M with less than 15k miles will sell for 110 grand. 50% lost in 6 years. That not mentioning the extra 30 to 50 grand premium people paid over the MSRP.

1991 NSX MSRP: $60 grand, A used 1991 NSX with less than 15k miles go for $30 grand, give to take a few. That's 50% lost in 15 years!!!

Depreciation is far less than people think on a NSX.

NSX was killed not by lack of "emotion" but the crash of economy in 1992, many supercars that supposed to hit the market never made it.

Sure, the 550 has poor depreciation but one could also point out that F40's, F50's, Enzo's, 288 GTO's and other Ferrari sell for over their original sticker years and decades from when they were sold. Look at the 348 - a 1990 348 goes for about $48-50k, over 50% of its original sale price. The 355 and 360 hold their value better then the NSX from the same year.

If the 1992 economy was the reason for poor NSX sales in subsequent years, why didn't NSX boom in the mid-2-late nineties with the high-tech boom, as Ferrari and Porsche sales did?

 

[TC]

NSX R has a different brake discs and pads than the regular NSX. It is a much more effective set up, and again, I have to disagree with you. F430 might have more advance design, but its stopping power on the track has not been as effective. You can see it on the

As for adjustable suspension, it's not a big deal for me, but is nice to have. Do you know the US spec F40 didn't have adjustable suspention?

As for leather/carbon fiber interior, it's all cosmetic enhancement, not performance related. I guess it's nicer, therefore, better

All the electronic gadget is needed for the F430 to help the car meet the engine power, NSX's designer Uehera holds the philosophy of simple package, lean design. Perhaps becuase the NSX is lack on hp, which didn't need all that stuff. You can make the same arguement with the F40, which also lack of all the electronic aid, and you can't possibly telling me the F430 is better.

Well, I do like the F430, if I have the money, I have on in my garage along with the NSX. But if I have my way, I'll take a F40 over both of them.

Man, you are a die-hard believer. Seems like your first paragraph got cut off but there is no way that brake pads and rotors are going to make the NSX brakes superior to the full race Brembo's on the F430. Everybody who races the NSX replaces the brakes with Brembo's (or some other high-end product) if they are allowed to do so by the regulations. Talk to the DAL Motorsports guys who had to race the NSX with stock brakes - I'm sure they tried every rotor/pad combination available and still had a challenge with the brakes (along with the rest of the car).

The US spec F430 does have the same suspension as the Euro version - electronically adjustable. The difference that you may be referred to has to do with launch control - there is a full F1-style launch control mode in the Euro F430 that is not available in the US model (or requires some special procedure to access).

The NSX was better than the 348 - people univerally agree on that. The 355 and NSX were close - most auto mags gave the nod to the 355. The 360 was clearly better. And 430 is in another league.

 

[TC]

You can make the same arguement with the F40, which also lack of all the electronic aid, and you can't possibly telling me the F430 is better.

Sure I would - the F430 is better than the F40. Now, people may have a preference for the F40 for various reasons - fun, driving thrill, styling, etc. But the F430 is just as fast as the F40 (or really close), easier to live with as a daily driver or even a weekend grand tourer (has space for luggage, etc.), more reliable, etc.

From a recent C&D:

It's hard to explain exactly how well the Ferrari is integrated. It's like a perfectly fitted glove. It goes where you merely suggest it go. It encourages faster corner entries than you would have anticipated, and it builds the driver's confidence, with some initial understeer giving way to a touch of throttle-induced oversteer at corner exits. That the interior is a pleasantly arranged space with plenty of room and a natural driving position is just sauce on the pudding. The F430 even swallows a fair bit of luggage.

Because U.S.-bound F430s are not equipped with Euro-spec launch control, our car was put through its paces with a normal launch, using comparatively low revs as the clutch engaged. So our 60-mph and quarter-mile figures are not as quick as those of the car tested in Italy by tech editor Aaron Robinson in January. The F430 is still scary fast and utterly seductive. The only quibbles were about its styling, and nobody liked the imperative warning beeps. Other than that, our judgment was unanimous: This is the world's most desirable sports car, bar none.

 

[BD]

Sure, the 550 has poor depreciation but one could also point out that F40's, F50's, Enzo's, 288 GTO's and other Ferrari sell for over their original sticker years and decades from when they were sold. Look at the 348 - a 1990 348 goes for about $48-50k, over 50% of its original sale price. The 355 and 360 hold their value better then the NSX from the same year.

If the 1992 economy was the reason for poor NSX sales in subsequent years, why didn't NSX boom in the mid-2-late nineties with the high-tech boom, as Ferrari and Porsche sales did?

Interestingly, Honda sold, or going to sell almost 19,000 NSXs by the end of this year; considering the fact that it is basically the same car since 1990, it's quite remarkable. Remember the waiting list they had on the NSX between 1990 to 1992 , when it was introduced? What I wrote above is not based on my “die hard” opinion, but based on some of the basic facts, some of the hard evidence can be seen from "Best Motoring" videos, if you ever have the chance to get a copy, you will know what I'm talking about. They only race "Stock/OEM" cars for comparison, and NSX R always considered by the professional racers to have better brakes and suspension than it's competitor, including 360/F430/GT3. Of course it doesn't have the power of the European exotics, but the truth is, for that kind of money Italian cars demanded, I sure hope they can perform better than the NSX in every aspect, but they don't.

As for resale value of the NSX to it's competitions, you cannot count specialty Ferraris such as F40/50, Enzo and 288GTO, I can make the same Argument about the 400 or so NSX R in the world, and they still demand at least 80% of their MSRP even with a 92 model - of course that's in Japan and England.

I do however, respect your opinion, I can see you're a Ferrari fan, one thing I will agree with you is, there is not a NSX fan in the world wouldn't want to own a Modern Ferrari. As a die-hard Ferrari fan, you can't possibly telling you will choose a F430 over the F40 if the Money is not an issue. By the way, it is funny how people praised the civility of the Modern Ferrari/Porsche, and they bagged on the same Civility of the NSX when it first came out, citing how easy it is to live with; therefore, it should not be classified as "Exotic." I guess Honda really put all the European Exotic manufactures to their place.... Or because they were way ahead of the game, a little too far ahead, people weren't ready for that. Gordon Murray flat out said, he rather drive a NSX over a Ferrari because it's a better car over all. He Drove one daily for six years, and guess who he is? He's the designer of Mclaren F1/SLR Vision.


Finally:

2000 360 Modena MSRP: $180k, Used: $110k = 61%
2000 NSX MSRP $90k, Used: $55k = 61%

1997 F355 MSRP $170k, Used: $90k = 53%
1997 NSX MSRP $90k, Used: $47k = 52%

1991 348 MSRP: $100, Used: $50K = 50%
1991 NSX MSRP: $ 60k, Used $30k = 50%

All the cars listed above are with similar mileage (around 20k miles), as you can see, the depreciation between the two (same class) is basically the same.

As for the 12 Cylinder Ferraris, you can't say the same thing; if you own a 550 or Testarossa, you will loose much more than 50 % of it' MSRP by the 5th year.

Also the cost of ownership is much greater with Ferrari, and the premium over MSRP you have to pay is ridiculous; for example, a F430 spider MSRP Is just under $210k, and the dealers are demanding $300k. Due, I rather own three NSXs and have them all supercharged, and still have change in my pocket. Coupe, Targa, and something else..lol


One more thing, do you own a Ferrari, or have you even own/driven a NSX?

 

[JD Cross]

Vancehu

I guess Honda really put all the European Exotic manufactures to their place.... Or because they were way ahead of the game, a little too far ahead, people weren't ready for that. Gordon Murray flat out said, he rather drive a NSX over a Ferrari because it's a better car over all. He Drove one daily for six years, and guess who he is? He's the designer of Mclaren F1/SLR Vision.

An excellent post!

The comparative new/used values suggest the market knows the NSX is good value for the money, it just doesn't enjoy the same auara.

I think the mystic of Ferraris or Porsches is not about the quality of their cars
but with the percieved exclusivity.

I thinkl the NSX has always been known as a better car to own and drive from a cost per mile point of view

The NSX did raise the bar when it was introduced and the others did improve thier product dramatically because of it, much as the Lexus raised the bar on the luxury segment

Unfortunately the Japanese car (and motorcycle) industry is still seen ( and correctly) as a volume producer.
The establishing of the Acura, Lexus, Infinity marques was clearly an attempt to distance themselves from their core volume businesses.

To me it keeps coming down to that aura of exclusivity that Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin etc have carefully nurtured over the decades.

Until Honda demonstrates that they can market with the same excellence as they design and manufacture I think they will always have the stigma of " a great car but it's just a Honda" as an earlier post said.

The more Honda's CEO talks about a V-10 NSX successor the more it may be looks a Maranello type of front engine AWD car rather than a mid-engine configuration.
The V-10 might add about a foot in width to the NSX V-6 and I'm not sure how they would package that unless they went longitudinal which would be expensive I'm sure

With all the money Honda is spending on IRL and F1 plus their stated goal of being the premier engine builder in the industry, they may try and position their next top-of-line entry against the Aston, Maranello type of GT car.

It may be a lot easier to excel in this segment than the Viper, Corvette, F430,GT3 class of car as weight and size are perhaps not so critical.
The GT type may be a better platform to show all the technology they keep referring to.

Your thoughts?

Jim

 

[TC]

I do however, respect your opinion, I can see you're a Ferrari fan, one thing I will agree with you is, there is not a NSX fan in the world wouldn't want to own a Modern Ferrari. As a die-hard Ferrari fan, you can't possibly telling you will choose a F430 over the F40 if the Money is not an issue.

One more thing, do you own a Ferrari, or have you even own/driven a NSX?

I am a fan of Ferrari cars because I admire the combination of absolutely beautiful styling, engineering, technology, passion, sound, speed, performance, attention to detail, etc. And also the commitment to the owners and the product. Nothing else comes close and Ferrari is the only company that is able to sell 3,500 cars per year at $200K+ each (and most at a premium over MSRP).

Some NSX'ers on these boards have posted that Ferrari's are all show and no go, and purchased only by poseurs looking to pick up chicks. That Ferrari's are not rich in technology or engineering, or that they are not for driving enthusiasts. I think that you will agree that these are ridiculous notions - cars like the F40, F50, Enzo, 355/360/430 challenge, the Stradale, FXX cater to the ultra-enthusiasts (where as the latest NSX-R with its over the top body mods and nothing else for $500,000 looks like something some out of work Pontiac designers developed).

Yes, I am an NSX owner - I bought one new in 1996 and recently bought the last NSX to campaign in the SCCA World Challenge series.

We all have our pet peeves and mine is what is best described as "disgust" with Honda for letting the NSX rot on the vine for going on 16 years now. They should be ashamed of themselves for that, and for killing the car without a new one ready to go. NSX-III should be on the market already. Things like "... need to get the car just right..." and "... gotta win some F1 races first..." are simply excuses. Honda has not been committed to the NSX since 1993 (when sales started falling off and the car needed a mid-cycle refresh/update) nor the NSX owners since about 1997 (giving us BS for years and years about a future NSX). I went to NSX 04 - Honda/Acura wasn't even there. How hard would it have been for Acura to have a display at NSXPO - shit the 05 RL was just being launches, bring a few for the owners of your most expensive product to test drive. Or even send Mr. Woodwork to do a tech talk. I can't imagine Ferrari not attending the annual national owners meeting.

Regarding the F430 versus the F40, given that money is not an issue I'd take the F430. It's nearly as fast and much more livable on a daily basis. The F40 is not a daily driver and I already have a track-only car. If money where an issue, of course I'd take the most value car. But the F430 is the NSX that Honda should have built years ago - it is technology rich (racing-bred technology, not like all of the e-nannies on cars from MB, Lexus and even BMW), exotic, livable, super-star at the track, reasonable daily driver, great weekend trip car, light weight, high-revving, small, nible, etc.

As always, JMO.

 

[BD]

Yes, I am an NSX owner - I bought one new in 1996 and recently bought the last NSX to campaign in the SCCA World Challenge series.

We all have our pet peeves and mine is what is best described as "disgust" with Honda for letting the NSX rot on the vine for going on 16 years now. They should be ashamed of themselves for that, and for killing the car without a new one ready to go. NSX-III should be on the market already. Things like "... need to get the car just right..." and "... gotta win some F1 races first..." are simply excuses. Honda has not been committed to the NSX since 1993 (when sales started falling off and the car needed a mid-cycle refresh/update) nor the NSX owners since about 1997 (giving us BS for years and years about a future NSX). I went to NSX 04 - Honda/Acura wasn't even there. How hard would it have been for Acura to have a display at NSXPO - shit the 05 RL was just being launches, bring a few for the owners of your most expensive product to test drive. Or even send Mr. Woodwork to do a tech talk. I can't imagine Ferrari not attending the annual national owners meeting.

As Uehera pointed out, NSX was the very first MR car by Honda, which is why, took them 6 years to develop. The next one wouldn't be that long to develop since the experience is there and they would do it right. As for your comment about 15 years production, well, it's nice to know that I can always count on Honda to get replacement parts at any time. To me, Honda should have replaced it in 2002 with HSC, but as you know, people wouldn't have like it because of the V6. One thing I will tell you is, C30A to C32B and 5 to 6 cogs was a big deal for a company that only sell 300 or so cars a year, and the combination made the NSX “perfect” for it's final evolution; as you mentioned, F355 was Ferrari's attempt to beat the NSX, and from what I have read (since I don't own a Ferrari), most of the press talking about how Honda's upmanship on the NSX and Ferrari fell a little short again (Read Mario Andretti's review for Road and Track in 1999). 360 Modena was the right package to beat the NSX, and they did. It is absolutely a beautiful car. Here is the question you have to ask your self, if Honda would have replace the NSX in, let's say, 2000, with a V8/V10 Engine, and made Ferrari 360 look like a Fiat with the way they did to 348, would you pay $120 grand for it?

As your comment about Honda let NSX rot after 1992, you know it's not true, little refinement here and there made the car competitive for over 10 years. It's not until Porsche 996 when they really out perform the NSX in a major way, and Ferrari, well again, bloom the price from 100k to 200k (348 to F430). In inflation point view, that is a legit business practice, and it really didn't affect the Ferrari demand. Porsche however, kept the price relatively same with very little increase; therefore, Porsche made bigger stride then Ferrari did. Again, I agree with you, F430 is a beautiful piece of machinery, and if I have the money, and can buy that car at MSRP, I would have it in my garage, but not for 100k over the market price.

To me, it's a shame Honda didn't import more Type S (Zanardi edition) or offer the Type R NSX here, they would have been the perfect car for some of us. The lack of HP is matter of changing the rule in Japan, as you know, no car built by a JDM manufactures are allow to have HP rating over 280. Things will change when the next gen NSX comes out, alone with Skyline GTR, and Toyota supercar.

As for NSX replacement, you know Honda is fully capable of producing a car that can out perform the Ferrari in every way, it's just matter of actually doing it. Here is a piece of information you might not know, Ferrari kept very low key about hiring some of the Honda's F1 Engineers after 1992 so to improve their reliability and technology on both road and F1 cars? Mr. Goto, head of Honda's second generation F1 program during the mid 80's to early 90's help developed Ferrari's first F1 V10 Engine and improve the HP/liter on the F355/360. Also, the shape of Ferrari Enzo is actually designed by a Japanese guy? I'm ready to see Ferrari engineers scratching their heads again when the next NSX is introduced.

Be thankful with the existence of NSX, if Honda never built the NSX, you will be wondering why Ferraris are so undrivieable. If you do hate it, there are always other options. Don't forget, Ferrari almost went out of Business until Fiat came to the rescue... Now it is matter of Italian pride and the government is even backing it, help them through some harsh economic time. NSX on the other hand, was developed when Honda was a small compnay, thei bold move really open up some eyes. Honda now is a world power, and they will build another standard setting car, with even more authority.

Ferrari's F1 dominance is over, when Michael Schemacher and the team of engineers retire, I doubt they will win another title in at least 5 to 10 years.

 

[swbatte]

Excellent post Vancehu.

 

[TC]

As Uehera pointed out, NSX was the very first MR car by Honda, which is why, took them 6 years to develop. The next one wouldn't be that long to develop since the experience is there and they would do it right.

Ok - fine, Honda should have taken its time to get the first NSX right. But while it was on the market they should have been working on the next generation. Just as they do with every other car that they make. It is certain that the next gen of the 911, mid-engine Ferrari and Corvette are already under development.

As your comment about Honda let NSX rot after 1992, you know it's not true, little refinement here and there made the car competitive for over 10 years.

Come on - little tweaks every 3-4 years don't mean much. Things like a better stereo and a nav system have been parts bin parts at Honda for years - to put them into the NSX is not that difficult. The 4 speed auto tranny (that can only handle 252 HP) is an embarrassment when the TL has had a 5-speed and 250+ HP for years. A 20 HP gain over 15 years - give me a break.

The lack of HP is matter of changing the rule in Japan, as you know, no car built by a JDM manufactures are allow to have HP rating over 280.

Not true. Infiniti has been making and selling cars with V8's that produce up to 340 HP for years. The current Q, M45 and FX45 produce something link 340, 335 and 315 HP respectively (or something close). The last generation Supra Turbo produced 320 HP back in the early 90's. As did the previous 300 Z twin Turbo.

As for NSX replacement, you know Honda is fully capable of producing a car that can out perform the Ferrari in every way, it's just matter of actually doing it.

I don't believe that. The bar is a lot higher than it was in 1990. And the bar will be higher yet in 2008/09 whenever the new NSX breaks cover. Continuous improvement is what got Porsche and Ferrari to this level - and it what's got Honda to where it is with its other products.

 

[BD]

Ok - fine, Honda should have taken its time to get the first NSX right. But while it was on the market they should have been working on the next generation. Just as they do with every other car that they make. It is certain that the next gen of the 911, mid-engine Ferrari and Corvette are already under development.



Come on - little tweaks every 3-4 years don't mean much. Things like a better stereo and a nav system have been parts bin parts at Honda for years - to put them into the NSX is not that difficult. The 4 speed auto tranny (that can only handle 252 HP) is an embarrassment when the TL has had a 5-speed and 250+ HP for years. A 20 HP gain over 15 years - give me a break.



Not true. Infiniti has been making and selling cars with V8's that produce up to 340 HP for years. The current Q, M45 and FX45 produce something link 340, 335 and 315 HP respectively (or something close). The last generation Supra Turbo produced 320 HP back in the early 90's. As did the previous 300 Z twin Turbo.



I don't believe that. The bar is a lot higher than it was in 1990. And the bar will be higher yet in 2008/09 whenever the new NSX breaks cover. Continuous improvement is what got Porsche and Ferrari to this level - and it what's got Honda to where it is with its other products.

Now are you nit picking about the stereo, and Auto tranny.

Dude, I suggest you do some homework before making this argument; if you ever read the Japanese publication/brochures on all of the Nissan and Toyota cars prior to 2004, you will find the HP rating is always @ 280ps, regardless how much the cars really have. Again, NSX R, Skyline GTR/300ZX, Supra all have over three hundred PS, they just can't disclose it. It wasn't till the brand new 05 Legend (RL) JDM broke the rule and posted 300PS. The rule is unwritten, therefore, Honda is the first to break it, and the floodgate is now open, and it's an all-new ball game.

By the way, you started to sound more like a bully now than before - by using lots of profanity; what's going on?

Again, British press tested 2002 NSX R 0-60mpr in 4.4 second, and _ mile in 12.6, you can't possibly telling me HP really means everything when the package is right. The little 20hp gain means nothing if the performance jump is not significant. Most the press documented 2006 ZO6 0-60 in 4.2 seconds, and that is on a car that is on part with the NSX in term of weight - and has a 500hp, 6 liter V8. To me, that is a little too excessive just to achieve that kind of acceleration.

Again, your argument really don't stand because NSX is still less than the half price of a F430, you still haven't answer my question on if you will pay $120 plus grand for a NSX replacement - if that car can out perform the F430? If your answer is no, you pretty much just tell the world that you are an emotional buyer, not a logical buyer.

Also, do you still enjoy driving your 1996 NSX?

By the way, we are at the point were there aren't much peformance between a $400k car to $130k, who knows what they will be in 2008. Therefore, don't be heart broken if the NSX replacement will eat what every F430 replacement for breakfast. After all, Honda CEO promised the new car to be ground breaking, with massive HP from a "giant" V10. To me, sound more like a direct challenge to Ferrari, do you really think they will want to built a sub Ferrari standard car? I don't think so.

 

[gheba_nsx]

Again, your argument really don't stand because NSX is still less than the half price of a F430, you still haven't answer my question on if you will pay $120 plus grand for a NSX replacement - if that car can out perform the F430? If your answer is no, you pretty much just tell the world that you are an emotional buyer, not a logical buyer.

Small problem: 90% of the exotic car buyers are emotional buyer. Maybe 99% because even the "logical" NSX buyers are not so logical... they could have bought a turboed Camaro for 1/5 of the money...

Over 90k only "prestige", "heritage", "soul", ... blablahblah cars can survive. That's the exotic supercars market... even Porsche would have problem surviving there without the huge basis of lower 911, caymans, boxters that they sell.

They couldn't live of GT2, GT3 and CarreraGT.


And remember that the NSX was able to outperfom and outengineer all the competition back in 1990 by far. All this and anyway in 2 years the sales were down 80%...

Now it will be impossible to create the gap that Honda did then against Ferrari&Porsche since their cars got so much better. How could thing look better this time if the car will cost even more?

 

[BD]

Small problem: 90% of the exotic car buyers are emotional buyer. Maybe 99% because even the "logical" NSX buyers are not so logical... they could have bought a turboed Camaro for 1/5 of the money...

Over 90k only "prestige", "heritage", "soul", ... blablahblah cars can survive. That's the exotic supercars market... even Porsche would have problem surviving there without the huge basis of lower 911, caymans, boxters that they sell.

They couldn't live of GT2, GT3 and CarreraGT.


And remember that the NSX was able to outperfom and outengineer all the competition back in 1990 by far. All this and anyway in 2 years the sales were down 80%...

Now it will be impossible to create the gap that Honda did then against Ferrari&Porsche since their cars got so much better. How could thing look better this time if the car will cost even more?

$90k is really not that much in today's economy, just live in Southern California and you will see countless 90k plus car. MB S/SL/CL 500/55/500, M5/6, Maseratti, Audi A/S 8, etc. Not to mention Porsche Cayene, 911, etc. Even the Z06 and Viper are over 70 grand. Heck, 400 grand can only get you a 700 Square feet, one bedroom condo out here.

Ferrari out engineer Honda? You gotta be kidding me. There is not a manufacture out there like to figure out to built a Honda like Motor; granted they now have the same type of HP out put, but they still don't have the same reliability.

Arguably, Ferrari 360/F430 are not better put together than the NSX, and that is a shame considering the method on the NSX is 15 years old. If they are better assembled, that gave Honda a good reason to keep the NSX in production for 15 years. If you have not own a Ferrari, you wouldn't understand, I have friend's out there paying their ass off just to keep one of those running, while my NSX required $40 oil change.

As for your comment, you talking as if Honda is trying to survive on the NSX alone. Dude, with billions of dollars they have already spend on F1/Indy program. The development of the new NSX replacement is just pocket change for them. Why not having Ferrari beater in the show room? Honda have achieve a record 6 consecutive Constructor's F1 Titles when they only have 6 models for sell in the world (Civic, Accord, Prelude, Integra, Legend), and still hold the highest HP rating than any F1 Engine in the entire Grand Prix history. With their financial power, they will be fool to have a sub Ferrari standard car. Ferrari had their chance to beat Honda's record of 6 consecutive titles, this year, and they failed…. THEY HAVE BEEN IN F1 FOR OVER 50 YEARS!!! And they have been in Exotic car business for over 50 years with countless classics. They still didn't get it right, at least not until this decade.

As Gordon Murray pointed out, Ferrari will have no problem selling any of their cars, doesn't' matter how bad/good they are, collectors alone will snatch them up.

The argument here is quite simple, who ever built a car to match or beat the highest performance car in its perspective class with the best reliability and lowest cost of ownership wins, even if they don't sell. The market has the room for both Honda and Ferrari, which is why 348/355 sold out when Porsche 911 and NSX were options. The bar was pertty high back in 1990, but it wasn't until Honda's different approach, which made the Italian/German makers rethink about their method, perhaps Honda knows more than you do about car making for what they did to Ferrari/Porsche?

We all know Honda will never be fully accepted as a Pure Exotic, nothing from Japan will ever be consider as exotics; unless you have prancing horse or raging bull emblem on the hood, everyone else can pretend to earn the title of exotics, but that doesn't means they can't beat it.

One thing I must say is, after translating a article I read couple of months ago, I believe they are going to built a car that will surprise every one. Project leader Mr. Uehera mentioned the performance gap between $200 and $400k exotics, which aren't that far apart. If the NSX replacement can do 0 - 60 in mid 3 seconds, and 1/4 miles in low 11's, that is probably all they need, because anything beyond that, you're talking about McLaren F1 and Bugatti Veyron.

Honda have already achieved 0-60 in 4.4 second with the 02 spec NSX Type R with only 280hp, imagine what they can do with a car that is going to be powered with a V10 (most likely 500 PLUS hp) with the same or less weight as the current NSX?

After all, they have to at least beat the Corvette Z06 (which is very much on par with the performance of the F430).

 

[Dan Ciezniewzki]

$90k is really not that much in today's economy, just live in Southern California and you will see countless 90k plus car. MB S/SL/CL 500/55/500, M5/6, Maseratti, Audi A/S 8, etc. Not to mention Porsche Cayene, 911, etc. Even the Z06 and Viper are over 70 grand. Heck, 400 grand can only get you a 700 Square feet, one bedroom condo out here.

Ferrari out engineer Honda? You gotta be kidding me. There is not a manufacture out there like to figure out to built a Honda like Motor; granted they now have the same type of HP out put, but they still don't have the same reliability.

Arguably, Ferrari 360/F430 are not better put together than the NSX, and that is a shame considering the method on the NSX is 15 years old. If they are better assembled, that gave Honda a good reason to keep the NSX in production for 15 years. If you have not own a Ferrari, you wouldn't understand, I have friend's out there paying their ass off just to keep one of those running, while my NSX required $40 oil change.

As for your comment, you talking as if Honda is trying to survive on the NSX alone. Dude, with billions of dollars they have already spend on F1/Indy program. The development of the new NSX replacement is just pocket change for them. Why not having Ferrari beater in the show room? Honda have achieve a record 6 consecutive Constructor's F1 Titles when they only have 6 models for sell in the world (Civic, Accord, Prelude, Integra, Legend), and still hold the highest HP rating than any F1 Engine in the entire Grand Prix history. With their financial power, they will be fool to have a sub Ferrari standard car. Ferrari had their chance to beat Honda's record of 6 consecutive titles, this year, and they failed…. THEY HAVE BEEN IN F1 FOR OVER 50 YEARS!!! And they have been in Exotic car business for over 50 years with countless classics. They still didn't get it right, at least not until this decade.

As Gordon Murray pointed out, Ferrari will have no problem selling any of their cars, doesn't' matter how bad/good they are, collectors alone will snatch them up.

The argument here is quite simple, who ever built a car to match or beat the highest performance car in its perspective class with the best reliability and lowest cost of ownership wins, even if they don't sell. The market has the room for both Honda and Ferrari, which is why 348/355 sold out when Porsche 911 and NSX were options. The bar was pertty high back in 1990, but it wasn't until Honda's different approach, which made the Italian/German makers rethink about their method, perhaps Honda knows more than you do about car making for what they did to Ferrari/Porsche?

We all know Honda will never be fully accepted as a Pure Exotic, nothing from Japan will ever be consider as exotics; unless you have prancing horse or raging bull emblem on the hood, everyone else can pretend to earn the title of exotics, but that doesn't means they can't beat it.

One thing I must say is, after translating a article I read couple of months ago, I believe they are going to built a car that will surprise every one. Project leader Mr. Uehera mentioned the performance gap between $200 and $400k exotics, which aren't that far apart. If the NSX replacement can do 0 - 60 in mid 3 seconds, and 1/4 miles in low 11's, that is probably all they need, because anything beyond that, you're talking about McLaren F1 and Bugatti Veyron.

Honda have already achieved 0-60 in 4.4 second with the 02 spec NSX Type R with only 280hp, imagine what they can do with a car that is going to be powered with a V10 (most likely 500 PLUS hp) with the same or less weight as the current NSX?

After all, they have to at least beat the Corvette Z06 (which is very much on par with the performance of the F430).

SIMPLY GREAT!!! Im gonna post it on ferrarichat.com

 

[gheba_nsx]

$90k is really not that much in today's economy, just live in Southern California and you will see countless 90k plus car. MB S/SL/CL 500/55/500, M5/6, Maseratti, Audi A/S 8, etc. Not to mention Porsche Cayene, 911, etc. Even the Z06 and Viper are over 70 grand. Heck, 400 grand can only get you a 700 Square feet, one bedroom condo out here.

Don't even try that ... you can not buy an apartment that big here in Zürich with that money. I know what expensive means, this is not eastern Europe

Anyway, while I see Ferrari&Bentley everyday I NEVER see NSXs. People really do not want to buy over 70k Hondas. It is sad but it is human nature... Honda already experienced this on their skin before.

Audi and BMW can maybe reach the 100k but not more. But they are considered a lot more status than Honda. And a lot more.

Above 100k it is a very special territory if you want to market a production car (not something like the FordGT in very minimal numbers),

A 120k NSX replacement? Probably 1000 will be sold in the world...

Ferrari out engineer Honda? You gotta be kidding me. There is not a manufacture out there like to figure out to built a Honda like Motor; granted they now have the same type of HP out put, but they still don't have the same reliability.

Who said that, please re-read my post? "Ferarri out engineer Honda?"???
I said that Honda outengineered Ferrari and everybody else by far in 1990. Anyway by 1994 the NSX was disappeared from the main interest even if it was still a lot better than Porsche, Ferrari and Lambo. Why? It was not something new anymore ("oh, an exotic car from a normal vendor!") and people went back to their luxury status brands.

Do you think Honda could create the same engineer gap now against the 2007/2008 F430???? :wink:

As for your comment, you talking as if Honda is trying to survive on the NSX alone. Dude, with billions of dollars they have already spend on F1/Indy program. The development of the new NSX replacement is just pocket change for them.

Of course of course... they want to lose money again on the car and have a second market disaster.

"Dude", you really hope Honda is making two times the same mistake (I cannot describe it differently) to help us buying a used one for 30k in 7 years? I would like that but I do not see that happen...

 

[BD]

If you think Honda have no Biz making a $90k plus car, then that's matter of personal opinion, specially some one from Europe. Don't forget, when the NSX came out in 1990, there was a one-year waiting list. Many people ditch Ferraris/Porsche and bought one of those. 18600 plus built - Basically the same car is not so shabby. USA has the biggest market, so if marketing of the car failed in Europe, they will still do well in US and Japan.

To make the argument more interesting, Porsche probably didn't make a dime (or lost money) on the Carrera GT, and McLaren SLR Vision is not selling well. Those care basically are the "NSX" of the Porsche and MB. Therefore, even the prestige car makers have problem selling high price cars. I'm curious what Bugatti will do when they find out the Veyron will not meet their sales goal.

Like I mention before, doesn't matter what people think about the NSX and its replacement, Honda is going to built it, and it's going to make a statement. After all, a success of a halo car is matter of Pride of a company, even if the car doesn't sell. After all, the original NSX debut as the world's most advance car, and brought plenty of attentions from European Exotics.

Remember the 80's and 90's? Western Europeans in general were not thrill with Honda's involvement in F1, rule changes were implemented on numerous occasion to drive Honda out of the sport. After all, no one like to see a small Japanese company that is known to make 4 cylinder passenger cars to dominate the most prestige motor sports over giants such as Ferrari/BMW/Cosworth/Renult/Lambo; those were the same people who think Honda have biz making exotic cars. But guess what, Honda executives were the one that was laughing because they beat the European giants on the track, and they had one of the best car in the market. I'm sure they will like to repeat that in three years.

 

[gheba_nsx]

so if marketing of the car failed in Europe, they will still do well in US and Japan.

Ah I see...

whatever.

 

[JD Cross]

I don't think the objective in the exotic car segment is to sell a huge number of cars
I suspect most of the exotic marques plan a certain production run which will give them a certain return
Some of these cars didn't sell as well as the manufacturers hoped, others like some of the Ferraris were over subscribed

Wasn't the Honda plan to make 25 cars per day at Tochigi? At 250 working days per year that would be, say 6,250 cars annually?
In retrospect that was not a doable number except for one year.

How many cars does Porsche sell per year?
Ferrari used to make about 4 k cars per year.
I'm sure Lambo was less than Ferrari

The next gen NSX will surely need to be marketed differently if Honda hopes to avoid a repeat.

I think they'll need to keep it very exclusive and at least a six month wait list.It would require a very different mind set than they currently have

Jim

 

[Attitude Adjuster]

Wow. Gee, this sounds so much like the NSX, it's not funny. Exotic. New technologies. Exotic materials. Ferrari who?

SALES FLOP.

It is not, and never will be a Ferrari. Hasn't ANYONE been listening? It doesn't MATTER how GOOD the car is, ok? ALL that matters here in NA is what BADGE is on the hood.

It's why the NSX didn't sell even a BETTER car than a Ferrari or Porsche and why the Z8 doesn't sell and why people buy Bentleys instead of $180,000 MBs. EVERY car has its price niche. Honda's and Acura's simply AREN'T in Porsche's realm. Neither is Lexus. LET Toyota produce a $150,000 car. Nobody will buy it. They'll sell a couple and then, people will get tired of having to defend that it's just a Toyota to the Italian owners' clubs.

Honda can succeed if they sell a sports car around $70,000 in today's dollars. That's about as high as a Japanese car can go for in NA. Any higher and it HAS to be German. The Germans top out in the low 100s, say 110 or 120. Any higher and it has to be Italian as a sports car or British as a saloon.

If Honda shows up w/ a 500hp V10 at $70k, I think they'll have a winner. The Viper and Vette are the model that have to be followed. The Viper is incredibly expensive for a Dodge and the fact that it's a Dodge has hindered it from Day One among buyers who cringed at the thought of driving a Dodge. But, it had 400, now 500hp, and a titanic engine. The Corvette was $40-55k, way cheaper. The Vette is and always has been a car that you bought to run w/ 911s but to save $40,000.

If Honda is dumb enough to AGAIN produce a better car than the Italians or Germans for NOT less than 1/2 the price and expect its objective technical superiority to win over buyers then they've learnt nothing.

Audi's supercar? Idiotic. They cannot sell Phaetons or A8s, much less a car w/ 4 rings on the hood and priced like a Lambo. The notion that they can is absurd.

Every top manager wants a supercar now, it seems, whether or not the thing will sell. Nissan, Mazda, and Honda have had sales success w/ relatively high-powered sportscars in the low 20s to low 30s.

Really, it will not matter how much hp the V10 makes, how good the torque vectoring is, if the car is made of unobtanium. If this is a series vehicle, potential buyers will STILL want a Ferrari.

It's because of CHICKS, dammit...start thinking like a girl. That means throw away nearly every piece of useful knowledge and focus on superficiality instead of substance. Once you do that for a minute, it becomes obvious why the Ferrari is the better car.

Two guys compete for a girl in a club. One says he drives a Ferrari, one an Audi or a Honda. Who gets the girl? DUH. Chicks have to SEE the NSX to be impressed by it...they can merely hear about the Ferrari.

Yes, I know, this doesn't MATTER to us, but the people here who love the NSX for what it does and how it does it, are NOT typical of the masses of people we have to depend upon to make this new car a sales success, you know the ppl who own Ferraris that sit in their garages all the time. Without lowest-common-denominators supporting our vehicle, it will get lost in the shuffle just like the NSX did.

Life doesn't evolve around Farrari owners. As far as girls, I always leave my NSX at home and drove the 1993 Ford Truck... No problems with chicks... Married a georgeous, intelligent nurse.

Bottomline,

If it was soo easy to predict what Honda plans on doing or their upcoming technology, then don't you think that when they deliver the product it would not be a big deal or other companies will have the same technology too? That is what made the NSX so ahead of time.

Just my .02

Python

 

[Attitude Adjuster]

Oh yeah,
I forgot to say... IMO, the rarer the car is that I own, then I don't have to "see myself" driving down the road like the corvette. It's just me, but I like the uniqueness and that how I pull away from nay-sayers of the car for then they have nothing to say. There was never a time that I took the car anywhere that people said anything but wow, cool car. (the nay-sayers would say the same after being forced to read my rear plate):biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

HONDA..... HURRY UP & BRING IT ON!!!!! We're WAITING!!!!!!!!!

 

[goldNSX]

Audi and BMW can maybe reach the 100k but not more. But they are considered a lot more status than Honda. And a lot more.

Fully ACK. Audi and much more BMW perfectly positioned their cars in the market.
Comparing the S2000 with the Z3 it was nearly ridiculous how the Z3 was positioned as the James Bond-roadster, for me a reason NOT to buy a Z3. But again, the marketing for the Z3 was perfect.
The Audi's and BMW's have 2 seats more and a bigger trunk to fit in their wife, children, dogs and baggage. There's as reason why Power-Audi's are called 'Pampers bomber'.

Of course of course... they want to lose money again on the car and have a second market disaster.

That's I think is the main problem Honda has with the new NSX: brand positioning. The air is much thinner than 15 years ago and it's not possible to get the same technological gap over the competitors like in the 90's.
What would be possible is a powerful 4 seater with IMA-technology, but then it's no sports car anymore. A car like the HSC would have been a great financial loss again and I think that Honda doesn't have to prove that they can built superior cars a second time. That's why I believe we don't see an new NSX-like car from Honda in the future.

 

[White92]

Fully ACK. Audi and much more BMW perfectly positioned their cars in the market.
Comparing the S2000 with the Z3 it was nearly ridiculous how the Z3 was positioned as the James Bond-roadster, for me a reason NOT to buy a Z3. But again, the marketing for the Z3 was perfect.

I thought the Z8 was Bond's car?

 

[goldNSX]

I thought the Z8 was Bond's car?

Maybe the Z8 was too, but as I remember the Z3 was also in a Bond-movie like the M5. As you can see the influence of BMW's marketing on MY perception: BMW = Bond. .
Could you imagine James Bond in a S2000 or an NSX? I would hate him for that! :tongue:
A last evil kick in the Bond-movie-a**: In the late nineties the Bond movies lost their profile they had with Sean Connery and became nothing more than average action-movies with too much special effects, even more sex scenes and ridiculous product placements (BMW).

 

[isellpower]

After all, no one like to see a small Japanese company that is known to make 4 cylinder passenger cars to dominate the most prestige motor sports over giants such as Ferrari/BMW/Cosworth/Renult/Lambo;

You have some very good points, but 80 Billion a year is not a small company. Honda would buy and sell Ferrari on it's worst day.

Honda cars, trucks, suv's, street bikes and dirt bikes, generators, lawn mowers, push and rider, personal water craft, ATV's, turbine engines and very soon small jets. Don't forget Honda Finance Company. They are far from the small guy getting over on the big guy. They are the big guy dominating the smaller guys. If they wish the next NSX to be number one it will be. They can also pick by how much they want to beat the competition by and it will happen. A V10 Honda will make any car enthusiasts heart skip a beat.