Oil leak in the gulf

[Miner]

Was reading up on the amount of oil spilled. Exxon Valdez - 250,000 barrels, and the deepwater currently estimated at 170,000. Attaching the wiki, we've got a long, long way to get into the top 10. Surprised to see a previous Gulf of Mexico spill that is #2. I guess in the pre cable days, we didn't have round the clock coverage of anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spills#Largest_oil_spills

 

[yojack1]

The beauty of capitalism is that, in the pursuit of economic gain, corporations *have* to promote the wishes of the consumer, and the common good for all or their business model will eventually become an economic failure.

I've watched my BP position disentegrate as their market cap collapses. I'm small potatoes, but I can only imagine what a 30% drop in net worth would do to one of their high level executives. Furthermore, due to the cleanup and other costly side effects, their bills are rising rapidly while their reputation is languishing rapidly. BP will take years to recover from this disaster. And probably rightfully so.

Greed is good.

I tend to think that their greed will have them thinking twice before letting something like this happen again.

BP is one of the biggest companies in the world involved in many other things that have nothing to do with pumping gas. Think about it next time someone pops open an aluminum can. Many people abroad could care less about what's happening here and they might even be enjoying it. They have no beef with BP. It's up to our government to make sure that they follow through with what they've promised. The bills for this are a drop in the bucket for what BP is worth!

Jack

 

[swerve2007]

just in case anyone had any doubts about 'big business' practices.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100526/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill

 

[TURBO2GO]

just in case anyone had any doubts about 'big business' practices.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100526/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill

Funny, I just posted on the "gore" bullfighting thread about "big business" and our food.

Big business is everywhere... and they have over 50% of the general public convinced it is good FOR US. It's fantastic. It's like making slaves proud to be a slave.

 

[queenlives]

apparently the guy who headed the offshore drilling agency is stepping down:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/05/17/oil.spill.resignation/index.html?hpt=T1

no doubt some other heads will roll:

Dir of offshore drilling agency fired:

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/27/director-of-offshore-drilling-agency-fired/?hpt=T1

 

[SilverStone05]

Funny, I just posted on the "gore" bullfighting thread about "big business" and our food.

Big business is everywhere... and they have over 50% of the general public convinced it is good FOR US. It's fantastic. It's like making slaves proud to be a slave.

Just curious.

For us non small business owners- where would one get a job without big business? And who would pay all the corporate taxes? And where would charities get their big ticket donations from? And what constitutes "big business" anyway and what makes it so evil?

Are say, "medium sized businesses" exempt from your scorn? What about "small business?" I know a lot of "small business owners" who are more apt to screw a consumer than a "big business."

Your post is just rather condescending. I work for one of the biggest companies in the world. And I'm a slave because of it?

 

[swerve2007]

Just curious.

For us non small business owners- where would one get a job without big business? And who would pay all the corporate taxes? And where would charities get their big ticket donations from? And what constitutes "big business" anyway and what makes it so evil?

Are say, "medium sized businesses" exempt from your scorn? What about "small business?" I know a lot of "small business owners" who are more apt to screw a consumer than a "big business."

Your post is just rather condescending. I work for one of the biggest companies in the world. And I'm a slave because of it?

you seems to continuously misunderstand the jist of these posts-
it is not about banning 'big business' etc, it is about accountability, following rules and morality. corporate law protects those making these decisions, hence they are being made. next time someone decides to send bunch of american jobs overseas and destroy the entire town with unemployment for 5 cents / part profit or flood the entire gulf with oil because safety was 'too-expensive', the public should have an opinion and right to act- this is our country too not just some a-holes' who will make 'good' for investors at huge costs to the public, pocket his 20 mil and dissapear.

 

[SilverStone05]

you seems to continuously misunderstand the jist of these posts-
it is not about banning 'big business' etc, it is about accountability, following rules and morality. corporate law protects those making these decisions, hence they are being made. next time someone decides to send bunch of american jobs overseas and destroy the entire town with unemployment for 5 cents / part profit or flood the entire gulf with oil because safety was 'too-expensive', the public should have an opinion and right to act- this is our country too not just some a-holes' who will make 'good' for investors at huge costs to the public, pocket his 20 mil and dissapear.

Cliff's notes:

The original poster has implied that big business is bad for "us" meaning consumers. Furthermore, he has implied that folks who agree with the idea of "big business" or those willing to further their interests or agree to be associated with them....are akin to slaves.

I challenged his statement and asked a few questions.

swerve, true to form, pops in with some idealist, utopian and emotional thoughts.

It seems to be You who isn't understanding the "gist" of the posts. :wink:

Oh, fyi - outsourcing is good for the local economy and the global economy. Just shortsighted folks like you don't care or are too small thinking to see it. :smile:

So....Turbo?

 

[yojack1]

It all boils down to the government doing a better job of enforcing what ever laws or regulations they set. Whether it's big business (or small) or a 6-year old, cheating it's what humans do. If we don't want this kind of disaster ever happening again we must demand that our government be held accountable and accept some of the blame for what they let fall through the cracks. The MMS for example, needs a complete overhaul with repercussions for not doing their jobs or taking bribes. Like jail for instance.

Leave the 6 year old alone in a room full of candy (or an adult with a room full of money) with instructions not to take any and you know it won't take long for the game plan to go right out the window. We humans just can't help it!

Therefore we need a large hammer and be willing to use it!

Jack

 

[Acura NsX Pilot]

Video of the top kill live

http://abcnews.go.com/video/video?id=6046305

 

[swerve2007]

Oh, fyi - outsourcing is good for the local economy and the global economy. Just shortsighted folks like you don't care or are too small thinking to see it. :smile:

QUOTE]

you are a dumbass- at least i think not regurgitate the hearsay.

'big business' running rampant is good for consumers? wall street, the gulf- really good for consumers- yes, we sure have a lot of influence here, don't we? so yes, we are slaves 'per say' and his post was well understood by everyone but you running to defense of your 'employer' of all things- good for you, make sure to ask for share of the profits. is it utopian to ask not to be saddled with fall-outs of THEIR policies based on profit? they pay taxes? great, so do we!
what I don't CARE about is whats good for global economy- i CARE whats good for us here and outsourcing is not good for local economy unless you shop at walmart and want to buy cheaper socks, not when technology that we spent billions developing is given to the chinese to copy for free and used in products to underbid us and the middle class loses the manufacturing jobs that created it. the 'big business' i work for is about to lay off 70% of the workforce at one of their plants because stuff is going to singapore to save on what?- SHIPPING of all things.
emotional? ask the folks that have no jobs, you'll hear emotion.- get the "GIST" ?(i am tickled that my mis-spell gave you such a rise).
oh yeah, back to the subject- poor BP, they had no idea what was going on either, how utopian to expect someone to adhere to regulation and safety standards- gosh am i a crazy idealist today!

edit: it is sad when a naturalized immigrant has views more patriotic and humane than ones some 'defend'.

 

[FogCityNSX]

Amazing how much natural pressure that stuff is under.

 

[yojack1]

Amazing how much natural pressure that stuff is under.

Poke a hole thats 13'000 ft. deep, and it's easy to see why this is turning out to be such a mother to cap. They need to get the drilling mud down 2-3'000 ft. to balance the pressure, only then can they inject the cement to kill the well. They have to be careful not to over pressurize to the BOP.
Even after all that, a possible fracture just under the sea floor spouting oil all over would be a really big nightmare.
Very scary indeed!

Jack

 

[FogCityNSX]

Poke a hole thats 13'000 ft. deep, and it's easy to see why this is turning out to be such a mother to cap. They need to get the drilling mud down 2-3'000 ft. to balance the pressure, only then can they inject the cement to kill the well. They have to be careful not to over pressurize to the BOP.
Even after all that, a possible fracture just under the sea floor spouting oil all over would be a really big nightmare.
Very scary indeed!

Jack

I can't imagine the work going to be involved in ALL of this to fix the problem. Well, time to head off to Pacifica Pier to catch some crustaceans for dinner! We're very fortunate.

 

[TURBO2GO]

For us non small business owners- where would one get a job without big business?

Jobs are created by demand, not by the size of the corporation. 10 smaller companies doing the same work doesn't mean less work than one big company doing the same work. If anything, it means MORE jobs. In any event, I am not here to advocate that companies should be any certain size. The free market can determine that... So long as it is truly free, and not "almost free" or "kind of free" or tilted toward "the one that helps get your politician elected" free. Would you not agree?

And who would pay all the corporate taxes? And where would charities get their big ticket donations from?

I am a very small company. I pay corporate taxes. How is 10 small companies paying corporate taxes any different than a big company paying it other than the fact that they get more breaks and actually pay LESS? As far as charities, I fail to see how that is tied to big business. If you were to compare the percentage of donations given by individuals and corporations, you would see that the individual is MUCH more giving than any corporation. I believe phillip Morris gives some amount of money to help educate kids against smoking... do you not see any flaw in that?

And what constitutes "big business" anyway and what makes it so evil?

The size of a business does not make it inherently evil. It just happens that most big business in this world becomes evil because it is driven by money. It becomes an insatiable creature that always needs more, without regard to life, morality, nature, the planet, not even the very people it depends on. Big business means big influence. Big influence means control of your politicians, control of your media, and eventually, control of your life. "de-regulation", means "allow me to do as I please". That is a dangerous thing. The topic of this thread is a perfect example of what happens when a large corporation like BP can lobby the government to "de-regulate" its safety systems.

One of the things I am most proud of in this country, is the seperation of church and state. It allows freedom for all those that wish to worship, but it keeps any one religious group from gaining control over others. Unfortunately, our forefathers could not see that we also need a seperation of "business" and state. This co-mingling and friendliness between "big business" and the government is a very freightening thing, and it grows everyday. It is the mad insatiable beast of greed loosening its collar.

Are say, "medium sized businesses" exempt from your scorn? What about "small business?" I know a lot of "small business owners" who are more apt to screw a consumer than a "big business."

Like I said, it is more about power and influence than size. There are, larger well run and more moral corporations than smaller more ruthless ones. A small company with heavy ties to the government in my eyes is more evil than a larger one with no ties. One is more likely to be punished than the other, one is more likely to have free reign than the other. I don't know why you say "scorn", all I have scorn for is the destruction of the birds, the fish, the fishermen, the environment, what you and I live on. I have scorn for those who make others suffer.

Your post is just rather condescending. I work for one of the biggest companies in the world. And I'm a slave because of it?

You are only a slave when you buy their reasons for doing things that eventually harm YOU. The regular guy, not the billionaire CEO. This game of fooling people is what goes on all the time. When you see the poorest of the poor defending the large corporation that keeps them poor, that is enslavement. It is the slave that is unaware of being one. It is Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn charging his friends to paint his fence.

 

[yojack1]

200,000 thousand, that's a number we keep hearing. But I was wondering, just what does 200,000 gals. by volume look like? How can I comprehend it?

How about an olympic swimming pool? 648,000 gallons (which surprised me), but that's still to hard to visualize. It would take about 3-days to fill it at that rate.

The average gasoline tanker truck, now that's something I can relate too. It's something I see a lot of, that holds 9,000 gals.

But maybe the best visual would be a simple square cube, or a big box.

So here it goes and please correct me if I'm wrong with these numbers.



Based on 7.5 gallons per cubic foot it would take a box that's 30'x30'x30' to hold 200,000 gals. or 27,000 cubic feet. That's a pretty big box, or about the same volume as two 1,500 sq. ft. houses.

It would take 22 tanker trucks to fill that box.

That's what is leaking into the gulf in one day.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now if we extend that out to 30-days the box would grow in size to over 93'x93'x93'. Almost a nine story building.
It would take 675 tanker trucks to hold the 6,075,000 gals.


How about 3-months which they say could be entirely possible.
The box would now swell to 135'x135'x135' and hold 18,225,000 gals. and would now need 2025 tanker trucks.


Now let's take it to the unthinkable, 6-months.

At 6-months, 36,ooo,ooo (that's million) gals. of lethal liquid in the water.

The box now would be 170'x170'x170', or 17-stories. 4,913,000 cu. ft.

Then if you were to line up the now 4050 tanker trucks, it would stretch out 50-miles long.


What really blows me away is if you took the 30 foot daily boxes and stacked them on top of each other, you would have 180 total.
Even at a depth of 5,000', the boxes would still rise above the oceans surface, 400 ft.


Whatever the actual figures, it's going to be a mother of a mess.


Jack

Updated numbers (not BPs)


Today they're saying between 12-19'000 barrels per day.

At 15'000 we're looking at over 600'000 gals.

81'000 cu. ft.

66 tanker trucks

43'x43'x43' cube

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Times 40-days (so far)

24'000'000 gals.

3'240'000 cu. ft.

2'640 tanker trucks

150'x150'x150' cube
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forty 43ft. cubes stacked one on top of another would almost reach the height of a 172-story building and 1/3 of the way to the sea surface.

Jack

 

[yojack1]

I can't imagine the work going to be involved in ALL of this to fix the problem. Well, time to head off to Pacifica Pier to catch some crustaceans for dinner! We're very fortunate.

I hope you saw the recent local report on Mercury levels in what your eating tonight. Not as fortunate as you might think and a surprize to me also! Unfortunately there's plenty of poison to go around!

Jack

 

[swerve2007]

Unfortunately, our forefathers could not see that we also need a seperation of "business" and state. .

one of the best observations here.
money is god in this country.

 

[SilverStone05]

The size of a business does not make it inherently evil.

That's all I was getting at.

Good post.

 

[TURBO2GO]

That's all I was getting at.

Good post.

Yes, but even if I made chocolate roses, leave me unchecked and soon someone will start to think that anti-freeze makes a pretty inexpensive sweetner and can increase our profit margin.

It is the checks and balances that keep things from getting out of hand, and the way that large corporations get rid of those, is by buying influence within the body that oversees those checks and balances (the government). They buy that influence by helping fool the public... to get the officials they want elected, and the ones they don't want defeated. Request a bit more regulation to avoid distaster, and you are suddenly labled a "socialist." This is the proceedure.

 

[SilverStone05]

Yes, but even if I made chocolate roses, leave me unchecked and soon someone will start to think that anti-freeze makes a pretty inexpensive sweetner and can increase our profit margin.

It is the checks and balances that keep things from getting out of hand, and the way that large corporations get rid of those, is by buying influence within the body that oversees those checks and balances (the government). They buy that influence by helping fool the public... to get the officials they want elected, and the ones they don't want defeated. Request a bit more regulation to avoid distaster, and you are suddenly labled a "socialist." This is the proceedure.

It's not business, though.

It's people. Greedy ass PEOPLE.

Checks and Balances - If the government is doing such a poor job of developing and overseeing current regulations, why in the name of God would you want them making more self suiting, misguided and potentially catastrophic legislative measures?

You can't count on the government to offer solutions to problems they helped create and perpetuated in the first place. That's not only socialistic, its naive and stupid.

New regulations will only keep new, potentially more moral, players from entering the marketplace because all of the sudden, the hurdles are so high, the only ones that can afford to compete are the ones that have been in the game a while.

The only way we can bring pain and force change upon an organization is for consumers to vote with their wallets. Reduce demand and corporations WILL listen.

But no one wants to go the hard way. No, they'd rather piss and moan on a public forum about their personal ethics, all the while perpetuating the same shit they claim to hate.....but which they cause and agree with everytime they fill up at the pump.

A lot of people talk a big game, but how many give up their electricity for a fireplace, running water for a well, their NSX for a bicycle, their supermarket for a farm, their mortgage for the struggle of saving and their wireless phone for smoke signals? None.

 

[swerve2007]

Yes, but even if I made chocolate roses, leave me unchecked and soon someone will start to think that anti-freeze makes a pretty inexpensive sweetner and can increase our profit margin.

It is the checks and balances that keep things from getting out of hand, and the way that large corporations get rid of those, is by buying influence within the body that oversees those checks and balances (the government). They buy that influence by helping fool the public... to get the officials they want elected, and the ones they don't want defeated. Request a bit more regulation to avoid distaster, and you are suddenly labled a "socialist." This is the proceedure.

sure am glad that i am not the only one 'spouting' about corporate influence in us. it is sad that these days anyone trying to see things rationally is automatically villified (like yours truly)- just tells you how entranched 'big business' had become in our politics and how brain-washed the public is when a simple terms like 'commie' or 'liberal' are used completely out of context yet are enaugh to discredit someones position.

 

[swerve2007]

It's not business, though.

It's people. Greedy ass PEOPLE.

Checks and Balances - If the government is doing such a poor job of developing and overseeing current regulations, why in the name of God would you want them making more self suiting, misguided and potentially catastrophic legislative measures?

You can't count on the government to offer solutions to problems they helped create and perpetuated in the first place. That's not only socialistic, its naive and stupid.

New regulations will only keep new, potentially more moral, players from entering the marketplace because all of the sudden, the hurdles are so high, the only ones that can afford to compete are the ones that have been in the game a while.

The only way we can bring pain and force change upon an organization is for consumers to vote with their wallets. Reduce demand and corporations WILL listen.

But no one wants to go the hard way. No, they'd rather piss and moan on a public forum about their personal ethics, all the while perpetuating the same shit they claim to hate.....but which they cause and agree with everytime they fill up at the pump.

A lot of people talk a big game, but how many give up their electricity for a fireplace, running water for a well, their NSX for a bicycle, their supermarket for a farm, their mortgage for the struggle of saving and their wireless phone for smoke signals? None.

sunshine, the moment you figure out how to separate business and people you let us know.
your observations are COMPLETELY USELESS- it is ALL about ethics as business is not a living thing and it is the greedy people running it that are at fault- as you yourself point out. think about what you are saying- it is you who comes up with utopian scenarios (like quit driving cars, lol) instead of making sure regulations are followed- and it is not up to government to ENFORCE but to people in corporations to take RESPONSIBILITY TO FOLLOW- get it? personal liability must be injected into corporate law- no more faceless board rooms making good for investors at the expense of the public.
how is that for 'pissing and moaning' for you?
just because we consume the product it does not mean that we do not want it produced the right way- without flooding the coast with oil- the price of gas is not an issue here but 'big business' attitude and their continuous struggle to bypass any regulation. if you can guarantee this shit will never happen again i am more than willing to pay more for gas.

 

[sahtt]

Oh, fyi - outsourcing is good for the local economy and the global economy. Just shortsighted folks like you don't care or are too small thinking to see it. :smile:

QUOTE]

you are a dumbass- at least i think not regurgitate the hearsay.

'big business' running rampant is good for consumers? wall street, the gulf- really good for consumers- yes, we sure have a lot of influence here, don't we? so yes, we are slaves 'per say' and his post was well understood by everyone but you running to defense of your 'employer' of all things- good for you, make sure to ask for share of the profits. is it utopian to ask not to be saddled with fall-outs of THEIR policies based on profit? they pay taxes? great, so do we!
what I don't CARE about is whats good for global economy- i CARE whats good for us here and outsourcing is not good for local economy unless you shop at walmart and want to buy cheaper socks, not when technology that we spent billions developing is given to the chinese to copy for free and used in products to underbid us and the middle class loses the manufacturing jobs that created it. the 'big business' i work for is about to lay off 70% of the workforce at one of their plants because stuff is going to singapore to save on what?- SHIPPING of all things.
emotional? ask the folks that have no jobs, you'll hear emotion.- get the "GIST" ?(i am tickled that my mis-spell gave you such a rise).
oh yeah, back to the subject- poor BP, they had no idea what was going on either, how utopian to expect someone to adhere to regulation and safety standards- gosh am i a crazy idealist today!

edit: it is sad when a naturalized immigrant has views more patriotic and humane than ones some 'defend'.

The flaw in your reasoning swerve is you assume there is a choice. You act as if shifting jobs "overseas" is a questions of yes or no. Unfortunately that is not how the world functions. Silverstone knows there is no choice involved, just allocation of capital and labor. As developed nations develop through industrialization and the creation of capital markets, firms' profitability here in the states (or elsewhere in the West) will erode without taking advantage of better labor pools like their competition does. Without profits there are no jobs, no matter how much you 'want' them to stay.

Sure the government can enact subsidies and market manipulation-it does it all the time. But oddly enough even this is not long term sustainable. The net effect at the very least is a massive trade imbalance and heavy dependence on foreign capital inflows to counter mounting national debt (sound familiar? It should). I wish we could just have full employment all the time and everything would be ok. But our nation's skill set and standard of living demands cannot support by import substitution type industry (what you are essentially suggesting). The "problem" of out sourcing is a problem with Americans lacking either the drive or opportunity to learn skills that correlate with our high labor and high tech society. Attacking the symptom will not solve the problem. I feel your frustration though, but it is mostly misdirected.

 

[SilverStone05]

sunshine, the moment you figure out how to separate business and people you let us know.
your observations are COMPLETELY USELESS- it is ALL about ethics as business is not a living thing and it is the greedy people running it that are at fault- as you yourself point out. think about what you are saying- it is you who comes up with utopian scenarios (like quit driving cars, lol) instead of making sure regulations are followed- and it is not up to government to ENFORCE but to people in corporations to take RESPONSIBILITY TO FOLLOW- get it? personal liability must be injected into corporate law- no more faceless board rooms making good for investors at the expense of the public.
how is that for 'pissing and moaning' for you?
just because we consume the product it does not mean that we do not want it produced the right way- without flooding the coast with oil- the price of gas is not an issue here but 'big business' attitude and their continuous struggle to bypass any regulation. if you can guarantee this shit will never happen again i am more than willing to pay more for gas.

No, they'd rather piss and moan on a public forum about their personal ethics, all the while perpetuating the same shit they claim to hate.....but which they cause and agree with everytime they fill up at the pump.

lol. I rest my case.

Make sure to shake your fist in the air in defiance to BP after you fill up the gas tank to your NSX, swerve. That'll make it all better. :biggrin: