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Oil leak in the gulf

The flaw in your reasoning swerve is you assume there is a choice. You act as if shifting jobs "overseas" is a questions of yes or no. Unfortunately that is not how the world functions. Silverstone knows there is no choice involved, just allocation of capital and labor. As developed nations develop through industrialization and the creation of capital markets, firms' profitability here in the states (or elsewhere in the West) will erode without taking advantage of better labor pools like their competition does. Without profits there are no jobs, no matter how much you 'want' them to stay.

Sure the government can enact subsidies and market manipulation-it does it all the time. But oddly enough even this is not long term sustainable. The net effect at the very least is a massive trade imbalance and heavy dependence on foreign capital inflows to counter mounting national debt (sound familiar? It should). I wish we could just have full employment all the time and everything would be ok. But our nation's skill set and standard of living demands cannot support by import substitution type industry (what you are essentially suggesting). The "problem" of out sourcing is a problem with Americans lacking either the drive or opportunity to learn skills that correlate with our high labor and high tech society. Attacking the symptom will not solve the problem. I feel your frustration though, but it is mostly misdirected.

'truthiness'- obviously i understand reasons for outsourcing (labor costs, regulation, freeing up us manufacturing base so they can concentrate on making more hi-tech products (which are nowhere to be found) etc) so that is not the basis of my argument, assuming ignorance is applicable to kids. i am speaking from position of being exposed to actual effects of outsourcing in the business environment (not hearsay- reading silverstone?) and the results are not as simple as the general theory might dictate- only the products that CAN be manufactured by unskilled cheap labor force and not requireing special knowledge or processes must follow the trend, not high-tech stuff that is being moved there for pure profit (and which i spoke about- note my walmart/cheap socks comment in the post that prompted your response). there is a big difference here, china can't make it all cheaper AND better but our industry thinks it can (there is actually a huge movement of streamlining the processes here in us to AVOID outsourcing). i am already seeing stuff returning back here after they learned their lesson in 'quality vs price' game- you guys see it from the 'capital investment' side of profit protection, i see it from the side that is seeing the failures of outsourcing in product quality, delivery and even price, not to mention the original cost of job loss- and not every job lost belonged to a lazy dumbass. the shipping costs skyrocketed since then along with labor costs and all of the sudden the outsourcing corporations are not 'saving' like they thought they should or were 10 years ago and now they are stuck- nobody wins but the country that now has the free factory and technology provided by the us business. you should know that in fact this situation was caused by the desire of this country to be a global player on all arenas- we do not have to be price competitive if we do not want to in areas we have full control of. i said it several times- we can play 'free market' when everyone plays by the same rules- until that happens all we are doing is pillaging our manufacturing base- ask china to enforce patent protection and re-value their currency first and then we can talk about trade imbalance.
there is no misdirecting 'frustration' here no matter what silverstone thinks he says.

a real example:
a us aerospace company was selling an Auxillary Power Unit (small jet engine that powers aircraft while it is on the ground) to asian markets for years- they paid the price because they can't match the performance as our stuff is 10x better in longevity, performance and fuel consumption (coatings, ceramics, metallurgy etc.). the said company decides to move the manufacturing of the product to china to save on shipping and assembly. after production is established china copies the process, applies it to their engines and now undercuts the us company on price to the point they lose the market share entirely. "free market"? not really, there was nothing forcing them to move it there but perceived higher profits which in the end killed them. like i said- first lets make sure they all play by the rules then we can talk 'free market', pay attention to what i am saying instead of dismissing it as a 'frustrated rant' please.
 
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Wow!









































"That's a really low price!"
 
any 'inside' news from 'ko-nsx' or others involved?
i heard a rumor of cutting the pipe and installing a hard-cap- if thats a possibilty i am surprised it wasn't tried before the 'dome' fiasko.
 
It's not business, though.

Checks and Balances - If the government is doing such a poor job of developing and overseeing current regulations, why in the name of God would you want them making more self suiting, misguided and potentially catastrophic legislative measures? :confused:

You can't count on the government to offer solutions to problems they helped create and perpetuated in the first place. That's not only socialistic, its naive and stupid.

The only entity that sits between the giant corporation that would do away with ALL RULES, pollute and destroy the environment, abuse its own employees, abuse the public, abuse people like yourself, is THE GOVERNMENT. How do they get rid of this body to be able to do what they want? How do they lobby and be able to get rid of a safety system that costs a a penny compared to their daily profits so they can make even more? By buying influence. How do they buy influence? by helping elect corrupt politicians. How do they get them elected? by fooling the general public.

When you, who is an average guy says "the government created all the problems", they have achieved their goal.

There needs to be a NON PROFIT, neutral body to check over companies. When there isn't, you have the banking disaster. When there isn't, you get toxic radioactive waste dumped into the river that supplies your drinking water. If the government is so bureacratic, then who is to be this body? Who is to have these checks and balances?

Yes, I agree, in many ways the government is broken, a failure, unable to enforce the most basic of rules. But it is so, because it is hampered by government officials who are under the influence of corporations. We currently have 1/10th the number of food inspectors in the country than we had in 1960. These are the inspectors that check to see if YOUR FOOD is safe to eat. Why the dwindling number when food production has increased 100 fold? Because corporations prefer it that way.

If you want to just complain that the government is inefficient, then what do you suggest we do for this body? should we turn the whole country over to business? Let them all "self-regulate"? This is what was already mostly done with businesses like BP during the last decade.

How is it that you, an average person, is afraid of regulation and in favor of what favors the giant corporation? when all they do, is hurt people like you? This is exactly what I was reffering to before. I want to hear your solution for the problem or do you think there isn't one? We are by far the loosest, least regulated country in the entire world, yet it is still not enough for big business.
 
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any 'inside' news from 'ko-nsx' or others involved?
i heard a rumor of cutting the pipe and installing a hard-cap- if thats a possibilty i am surprised it wasn't tried before the 'dome' fiasko.

Im off the rig now but i may be going back early on fri. I know they have stopped drilling in the gulf. That means layoffs and stacked rigs that will affect lots of people. So the gulf fishing industry and the actual drilling industry will be affected. I saw the auto industry take a dive and now this is taking one. I see that bickering and finger pointing is still going strong.:smile: I need to be an analyst, possibly? :confused:
 
Define irony:

The BP person that was on board that told the Transocean guys how they SHOULD plug the well so he could save BP some cash(because he wanted a bonus or higher up's told him how they wanted it done)....is now probably the most hated man anywhere and def. has no job.
 
Im off the rig now but i may be going back early on fri. I know they have stopped drilling in the gulf. That means layoffs and stacked rigs that will affect lots of people. So the gulf fishing industry and the actual drilling industry will be affected. I saw the auto industry take a dive and now this is taking one. I see that bickering and finger pointing is still going strong.:smile: I need to be an analyst, possibly? :confused:

That is really sad. To think we've been drilling for 40 years in the GOM and we have a single mishap under extraordinary circumstances and all these oil workers will lose their jobs is just sad. If what you say is true, expect higher oil prices.
 
Define irony:

The BP person that was on board that told the Transocean guys how they SHOULD plug the well so he could save BP some cash(because he wanted a bonus or higher up's told him how they wanted it done)....is now probably the most hated man anywhere and def. has no job.

Rather interesting how no media has been able to track down the parties (or person) in charge on the rig that day. What's his prior record for making the company a few extra pounds (dollars)? They have conveniently become invisable and protected. I wonder if he (or they) was the first off the rig that day? If this were an airplane or shipping disaster we would know the common pilots (captains) name. Could be a Brit who ran home otherwise 60-Minutes would be knockin on his door. How can anybody hide nowadays! It's no accident! Big money has it's privileges.

Jack
 
That is really sad. To think we've been drilling for 40 years in the GOM and we have a single mishap under extraordinary circumstances and all these oil workers will lose their jobs is just sad. If what you say is true, expect higher oil prices.

There has got to be some new jobs out there that will come about from this mess!

Jack
 
Im off the rig now but i may be going back early on fri. I know they have stopped drilling in the gulf. That means layoffs and stacked rigs that will affect lots of people. So the gulf fishing industry and the actual drilling industry will be affected. I saw the auto industry take a dive and now this is taking one. I see that bickering and finger pointing is still going strong.:smile: I need to be an analyst, possibly? :confused:

i hope thats not the case- stopping oil production because of this would be misguided, i think. it is not the proces's fault but its' execution- we need to learn (again) that decisions made have to be 'right', not just profitable or convenient.
 
That is really sad. To think we've been drilling for 40 years in the GOM and we have a single mishap under extraordinary circumstances and all these oil workers will lose their jobs is just sad. If what you say is true, expect higher oil prices.

This isn't the first mishap in the GOM, not anywhere near the biggest either. Today is the 31st anniversary of the Ixtoc I incident and it is way bigger, but we do look at things differently now. We do look at things with so much more sensationalism now, and with a misguided sense of nobility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ixtoc_I_oil_spill
 
i hope thats not the case- stopping oil production because of this would be misguided, i think. it is not the proces's fault but its' execution- we need to learn (again) that decisions made have to be 'right', not just profitable or convenient.

I think the workers that actually work on the equipment and operate the equipment should be able to make decision about the equipment, instead of calling a boss in houston, that is not on the rig and doesn't have all the info to make a decision that needs to be made from actually being there. Transocean and BP run things from the corporate office. Unfortunately nowadays, if you don't do what you are told you will be sitting at home.

When I worked for Chrysler and we had to shut the line down for something i felt was unsafe, i didn't have to have a meeting about why i did what i was trained to do, or call the rig manager or go to Houston to have a meeting about why i did what i did, did i ask anybody(that wasn't there) about the steps i should have taken to do what i was trained and paid to do.:confused:

I think i would want the people that spend 12 hours a day, 21 days in a row, with the equipment they were trained on making decisions that affect them and their co-workers.

Ya'll get my point, i'll stop.:biggrin:
 
This isn't the first mishap in the GOM, not anywhere near the biggest either. Today is the 31st anniversary of the Ixtoc I incident and it is way bigger, but we do look at things differently now. We do look at things with so much more sensationalism now, and with a misguided sense of nobility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ixtoc_I_oil_spill

Yes I know about that spill. There's a big difference between a government run entity and the private sector. Find me a spill in the GOM from private industry. Pemex is owned by, well, the Mexican government.
 
I know this sounds to simple and there is a reason why they can't, but why can't they disconnect that flange just below the cut line. It has those huge nuts and bolts that attaches the 20" pipe. Can't an open valve be bolted in place then closed, or even a relief pipe to the surface that's bolted in place at that flange. Maybe there's no way to turn the nuts and bolts with the robots. Anyone know what those robots can or can't do?

Jack
 
Any updates, KO-NSX ?

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This is such a disaster...BP needs to fork out the cash and get on top of cleaning this up as fast as they can.....and they should be fined out their ass for this mess. Like $300 billion dollar fine plus clean up and upgrades to their current system.
 
This is such a disaster...BP needs to fork out the cash and get on top of cleaning this up as fast as they can.....and they should be fined out their ass for this mess. Like $300 billion dollar fine plus clean up and upgrades to their current system.

Try googling oil spill. All you get are BP ads. Go on youtube and search... more BP ads... turn on the TV, more BP ads. They are ALL OVER the internet :rolleyes:
 
I know man they are paying to keep their name at the top when you search them....so you can read they are doing a great job on clean up response....they need to fire their ceo and get someone who is trying to get this cleaned up asap.

Well the UK and US are allies so I don't think much will happen in punishment.
 
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