Where's the bottom

[gaymondleerpv]

The reason I ask is I see the 1st gen r8s starting in the 70k level and newer ones @~100k (2012s?) and wonder if it's as uncomfortable but without the looks of the Lambo. If yes, I'd rather keep my boxster spyder as there is more upside to Porsche retaining or increasing value with better reliability and probably lower cost of maintenance. As for R8's, another nsxprime member (Hey Stephen) wanted to get one and he ended up with a Gallardo Spyder after having driven both cars. The night before I purchased the new nsx, used mclarens and 458s crossed my mind again but the combination of being new along with comfort and reliability ended up swaying my decision to go with the nsx. I only started driving my old NSX back in June ((after having it mostly sit for 11 years) because the front forward view of the mp4-12c I test drove reminded me of the NSX that I was contemplating to sell. The mclaren was much nicer but it is a different price point (even used) and much newer so that is no surprise. Most buyers of the NSX can buy the other cars and chose not to. I have a friend who has high end cars (and is a car nut) and he had no idea what the NSX even is and it wasn't even on his radar. He texted me last night surprised it was a hybrid. He has a 918 Spyder, LFA, GT3, 911R, gt2rs on order (he is in the porsche vip program), and had a Veyron amongst many high end cars.

 

[N Spec]

1990s sports cars sales were are a different climate compared to now. If the first gen NSX released now, today, it would see similar results actually.

First impressions are hard to come by, however the press has the power to still turn the car around with concrete numbers... It takes time to build a brand properly.

If I were Honda, I would step up on that Type R or performance variant that is purely focused on beating the competitors in either 1/4 mile or track times. Any Curb weight reduction should be the main focus with some increases in power.

The small stuff like interior material and such can be refined easily, but that 3800+ lbs of weight is hindering ultimate performance even with 570 hp and loads of bottom end torque. Those minuscule tenth of seconds clearly has the shallow public's perception binding. It's about stealing some portion of potential 911/R8/Corvette/GTR owners now as it's clear there were not vacant sports cars shoppers waiting for a hybrid like the NSX.

With that said, let's not pretend that the NSX was meant to be a sales success tho like the 911 or Corvette as I mention before. It was meant to generate more eyes on Honda/Acura with the flagship tech and flaunting. It was just supposed to sale enough to hopefully continue the NSX brand properly...

 

[EuroBoutique]

You guys all make excellent points, no wrong answer here in our opinion.

Honda's new NSX was not meant to destroy Porcshe or Ferrari / McLaren as that is simply not possible. What Honda DOES NEED TO DO is build their own niche market slowly to bring new and existing loyal Honda customers back. Many of us are huge Honda fans or we would not be here on this site. There are plenty of fish in the sea but we chose to be here on NSXPrime.

Honda needs to look at all the legitimate comments being made and plan their next steps carefully. We were a bit shocked there was no new changes for 2018, even a bit saddened as this car needs some improvements. Even a Type-S version prior to the Type-R would help. Get the car on a diet, give the owners some bespoke custom order options and even a few new colors.

All the competitors in this category offer customization. Audi has their Exclusive program, Porsche and the rest offer customization beyond imagination.

 

[fastaussie]

The reason I ask is I see the 1st gen r8s starting in the 70k level and newer ones @~100k (2012s?) and wonder if it's as uncomfortable but without the looks of the Lambo. If yes, I'd rather keep my boxster spyder as there is more upside to Porsche retaining or increasing value with better reliability and probably lower cost of maintenance. As for R8's, another nsxprime member (Hey Stephen) wanted to get one and he ended up with a Gallardo Spyder after having driven both cars. The night before I purchased the new nsx, used mclarens and 458s crossed my mind again but the combination of being new along with comfort and reliability ended up swaying my decision to go with the nsx. I only started driving my old NSX back in June ((after having it mostly sit for 11 years) because the front forward view of the mp4-12c I test drove reminded me of the NSX that I was contemplating to sell. The mclaren was much nicer but it is a different price point (even used) and much newer so that is no surprise. Most buyers of the NSX can buy the other cars and chose not to. I have a friend who has high end cars (and is a car nut) and he had no idea what the NSX even is and it wasn't even on his radar. He texted me last night surprised it was a hybrid. He has a 918 Spyder, LFA, GT3, 911R, gt2rs on order (he is in the porsche vip program), and had a Veyron amongst many high end cars.

i would take an (older) R8 before a Gallardo any day. unless it's the Superleggera. but that car would be pretty useless as a daily street car. the R8 is supremely livable on a daily basis, comfortable and reliable. it's a truly great machine. but before that, i'd get a 458. 85% as easy to live with, and superior to either the R8 or Gallardo in most every other sporting intent.

if you do decide to test drive or buy an R8, get either the manual or the DCT tranny. the single clutch paddle shift transmission sucks, like the Gallardo.

i don't care for Veyron's, but besides that your mate has a sick collection of cars...

If I were Honda, I would step up on that Type R or performance variant that is purely focused on beating the competitors in either 1/4 mile or track times. Any Curb weight reduction should be the main focus with some increases in power.

The small stuff like interior material and such can be refined easily, but that 3800+ lbs of weight is hindering ultimate performance even with 570 hp and loads of bottom end torque. Those minuscule tenth of seconds clearly has the shallow public's perception binding. It's about stealing some portion of potential 911/R8/Corvette/GTR owners now as it's clear there were not vacant sports cars shoppers waiting for a hybrid like the NSX.

With that said, let's not pretend that the NSX was meant to be a sales success tho like the 911 or Corvette as I mention before. It was meant to generate more eyes on Honda/Acura with the flagship tech and flaunting. It was just supposed to sell enough to hopefully continue the NSX brand properly...

i have to agree with you on the first couple paragraphs N Spec. Honda has to step up their game, drastically. if you want to sell high performance cars in a high performance segment, your car needs to perform as highly as the competition, which this car does not. so obviously a no brainer.

as far as being a sales success? obviously the NSX was never intended to sell at 911 or Corvette high volume numbers, but it was expected to sell at the small limited numbers Honda set forth for it. and it didn't get close to them. so it is undoubtedly underwhelming in that regard. proof that they need to do better, and they can't be happy about that...

You guys all make excellent points, no wrong answer here in our opinion.

Honda needs to look at all the legitimate comments being made and plan their next steps carefully. We were a bit shocked there was no new changes for 2018, even a bit saddened as this car needs some improvements. Even a Type-S version prior to the Type-R would help. Get the car on a diet, give the owners some bespoke custom order options and even a few new colors.

yup...

 

[N Spec]

Well, how many US NSX have been produced now? If it met the 800 mark for 2017 or is close, I'd say it's met the target even if incentives had to step in. Still a sign for swift improvements tho.

 

[gaymondleerpv]

Nope I'm not in the market for r8, its just so many people mentioning it as well as some of my friends that I was curious to hear what you guys had to say since you owned them. I have an 08 gallardo spyder in arancio borealis and the egear transmission is horrible but everyone loves the car and everywhere i go someone has questions about it and I usually just want to be left alone so I drive something else or I just bear with it and be as nice as I can be. I'll probably take it out and be the coolest (and only) dad at girl scouts meeting tomorrow. I drive it maybe once or twice a month so I don't need it to be comfy or even sporting. Just put the top down and listen to the v10. My 91 nsx is @ 389 rwhp and by the weight loss spreadsheet should be at < 2630lbs so similar power to weight as 458 but far away from it in sound and looks.

 

[porsche37]

first of all, from the sales numbers that have been posted on these very forums, the R8 has been outselling the NSX every month by 2 or 3 times. easily outpacing it.

secondly, the NSX doesn't get to 60 mph in under 3 seconds. it's been tested hundreds of times, it doesn't do it. that's just fact.

and lastly, the NSX is not twice the car the Audi is.

i'm certain your optimism and infatuation with the new NSX is appreciated, but you're way off on your talking points. don't get me wrong, the NSX is an excellent car. but so are the Porsche 911's, the R8, the McLaren's, the Lamborghini Huracan models, the mid-engined Ferrari's, etc. and unfortunately in comparison, the NSX is nearer the bottom than the top in performance, desire, and obviously sales...



because it's an incredible car. but i fully agree with you, the Huracan is a vastly more engaging experience. while they share the same drive train, the Lambo is much more visceral..

......They made way more more 2017 R8's worldwide than NSX's Thats what the numbers are higher. The NSX is a much rarer car even if all left were sold today.

The new R8 is not selling like the previous generation. compared to that its a failure.

I love people that don't own cars but have "driven" them that tell an actual previous owners that they don't know what they are talking about.

Seriously the NSX is twice the car the 2017 R8 is. .......... As far as the Huracan amazing car but if you want to save about $100k and get the same car and performance go with the 2017 V10 plus R8.

 

[Tom239]

Well, how many US NSX have been produced now? If it met the 800 mark for 2017 or is close, I'd say it's met the target even if incentives had to step in. Still a sign for swift improvements tho.

Did you mean produced or sold?

Even if the number of units is close to a target there are other ways to look at whether things turned out as expected. Corporate told dealers not to sweat the high cost of the NSX program (tools, training, ...) because they'd make it back in market price adjustments. In most cases that didn't happen.

 

[porsche37]

Nope I'm not in the market for r8, its just so many people mentioning it as well as some of my friends that I was curious to hear what you guys had to say since you owned them. I have an 08 gallardo spyder in arancio borealis and the egear transmission is horrible but everyone loves the car and everywhere i go someone has questions about it and I usually just want to be left alone so I drive something else or I just bear with it and be as nice as I can be. I'll probably take it out and be the coolest (and only) dad at girl scouts meeting tomorrow. I drive it maybe once or twice a month so I don't need it to be comfy or even sporting. Just put the top down and listen to the v10. My 91 nsx is @ 389 rwhp and by the weight loss spreadsheet should be at < 2630lbs so similar power to weight as 458 but far away from it in sound and looks.

2014 R8 and 2015 first gen R8 are years to get as they have s tronic dual clutch trans. I would avoid all other years unless stick. The new R8 is a decent car but the styling is off in my opinion also performance numbers on the standard 2017 R8 v10 are not nearly as good as the NSX and it does not drive as well in my opinion. The V10 plus is different story and right there with the Lambo but for a lot less money.

 

[N Spec]

Production numbers and sold go hand and hand. Cars cannot sit on lots forever unless the dealer intends on actually buying the car outright and selling it used, in which case, it would still count as being sold...

Clearly the NSX is a sports cars that struggled to be "sold out" as many sports cars or leftover MY cars in general can be seen. Last time I saw concrete sold numbers, it was at 500 or so for the US? That's actually over halfway decent. Obviously not a home run.

As far as lying to dealers with market adjustments, that's a really bad practice, for consumers too, but I suppose something had to be done to motivate the dealers in upgrading their services to facilitate the sales of the new NSX. Ultimately the dealers are stuck with the costs now for the service upgrades, however, it should motivate them to sell higher volumes of NSX from their own dealer network to guarantee future service charges in volume since the new NSX seems to have a much higher service cost. If I were managing a dealer who had to shell out those costs, that would be my game plan. Sell new cars in volume and make up your profits in the used car sales, but alas many old time dealers can't seem to adapt. No one wants to really pay markup in the age of information anymore...

 

[gaymondleerpv]

It's unlikely any 1 dealer will recuperate nsx costs from selling more NSX cars alone. Honda/Acura should focus on making more cars that I would consider buying and making $ from servicing the additional cars along with the NSX. A convertible sports car would work or a capable 4x4 like a landcruiser. Just received an email from Lambo dealer $1899/mo for a 2017 Huracan. Thats about the same # Acura wtd for NSX or higher so who is going to choose an NSX over a Huracan for a lease deal especially if the NSX is higher cost?

 

[mcrider]

From Carssalesbase: US sales 2017 first half: Sports Large and Exotics segment



Sales of Large Sports Cars and Exotics fell by 2.6% in the second quarter of 2017, a slower pace of decline than the 10.4% registered in 2016, or the 5.5% registered in the first quarter of the year. Could this be a sign that the segment is going through a bit of a resurgence? As we previously mentioned, this segment had undergone a huge growth in years past, so the recent declines come from a heady height, and suggest the segment may simply be stabilizing at a sort of “good times” average size, before once again shrinking drastically when the next recession hits (such is the fate of a segment where most cars sell for well over $100,000).Highlights for the first half of 2017:

Lexus LC
​

• Chevrolet Corvette remains the undisputed champion of this segment, despite its sales falling a further 4.8% in the second quarter of 2017, resulting in a compound drop of 6.6%
• Unlike the Corvette, Porsche 911 saw its sales decline accelerate, with sales drop in the second quarter of 2017 reaching 17.1%, providing further ammunition to those who say that Porsche should not have gone all-turbo with its models
• No such worries for Jaguar F-Type, whose sales rose a remarkable 29.5% in the Q2’17, helped by the introduction of four-wheel-drive versions over the course of the past year
• The most remarkable performance in the segment came probably from the Lexus LC, which came out of nowhere to grab fifth in the YTD standings despite only coming to the market in the second quarter, and actually outsold the Mercedes-Benz SL over this period
• Sales of the new Audi R8 rose by 84%, and the model may yet pass 1,000 sales in 2017, which would be only the second time it had done so (it last did it in 2011)
• Other models that did well include the run-out Dodge Viper (up 35%), the facelifted Nissan GT-R (sales up 18%) and Bentley Continental GT (sales up 15%)
• Also, after a slow start, Acura NSX is starting to gain traction, and did well enough to outsell fellow electrified supercar, the BMW i8, which also recorded by far the largest sales drop in the segment, with sales falling by almost two third.

For the first half they report the R8 at 481 units and the NSX at 278. I thought the NSX stated US sales target was ~600 units in year one so looks like they will be close.

 

[fastaussie]

For the first half they report the R8 at 481 units and the NSX at 278. I thought the NSX stated US sales target was ~600 units in year one so looks like they will be close.

the goal was 800 for the NSX in year one...

 

[N Spec]

Spec, i was only talking about cars that have been sold, and are in private citizen's garages. Acura can produce 10,000 NSX's a year, but if they only sell 500, well, you get it...



very few...



the 458 is heaps better than either... :wink:



you're absolutely correct about the transmissions, however your opinion on the styling is subjective. you may have noticed a lot of Primers don't dig the NSX's styling either?

and also correct, the V10 Plus will obliterate the NSX. the top of the line models are the ones that get compared to each other, not the base...



yes, the NSX is much rarer on the road than a new R8. that's because no one bought them!

the Huracan may share the same drivetrain with the Audi, but it is a very, very different animal. anyone who has driven both will attest to that.

the R8 may not be selling like the last generation, but we're not comparing R8's. we're comparing the NSX to the R8. and in that regard, for the sales numbers i have seen posted on these forums each month, the R8 has been outselling the NSX by 2 or 3x.

i love people who are new on a forum and aren't aware of who they're talking to, and presume they do or don't own particular vehicles... :biggrin:

The NSX is not the only sports car or car to have produce more than enough to last on lots. In fact I'd say 95% of all car models have excess inventory and start seeing discounts towards a new MY and the next year's orders are adjusted accordingly. Production ultimately equals sold eventually. This is why any previous history is car production, not cars sold. Unsold cars don't just sit forever on lots or in museums. They get sold off somewhere due to loans and banking transaction fees. Once it's produced and shipped to a dealer, it's essentially sold to the dealer for invoice, etc. Dealers are motivated to sell within x amount of months or excess fees will incur through the loans they've taken from their respective banks. So dealers do control production numbers to an extent with their orders, but again, production numbers is all that matters in the long end.

 

[fastaussie]

naturally, i'm not contesting that at all. every brand will have models sitting on the showroom floor. unless you're Ferrari or Porsche, then you'll have waiting lists for years or you'll sell out an entire production run in minutes.

the R8 is selling significantly better than the NSX, which isn't do as expected, or very well in general.

there is no denying that. hence the reason for this very thread...

 

[N Spec]

I am sure Honda wishes they could cannibalize some of the R8's sales simply for the sport if nothing else and in fact they technically did, just not outselling them as you stated. Let's face it tho, Audi's marketing is much better than "humble" Honda's team.

 

[shawnek]

That is a big "IF", how does that work, even if they were to sell every remaining car out there today, and 2018 becomes a "special order" (not displayed on showroom floor, please let me know how this will work) how would that translate into demand? Would that also translate into all of a sudden every super car buyer is going to have to have one, knowing full well the 17's were priced incorrectly, will they in fact pay msrp on 18's of $170K plus (if Acura were to adjust msrp)? I do not see the silver lining in this, the NSX as it currently sits is not perceived as a super car and the market past and present reflects this. If the NSX is to survive going forward it will have to be better in every category from fit/ finish to options to performance and lastly pricing structure....JM2C

P.S
I am aggressively searching for a 130R White with 2 options (Silver and Black are options too) and there are (6) dealers out there with inventory sitting on their floor for nearly 10 months still thinking they will hit the home run (read not willing to accept market reality ).FWIW

One here in Des Moines they are willing to discount that is 130R white - I love the color but I'm not a fan of red interior. But if you would like that, there's a deal to likely be made there.

 

[shawnek]

Living in Iowa, anything I buy is guaranteed be garaged in a month or so; sold my R8 earlier in the summer. I had a 05 NSX and I just loved it, and my 09 R8 was fantastic. With some construction issues around my place, I didn't want to have it sit in the garage all summer because I didn't want to have to worry about the constant gravel/construction/headaches.

I love the look and feel of the new NSX (I wasn't allowed to drive the one here in town because this dealership, to be honest, lacks salesmanship, "it might get a rock chip!", and I didn't like the interior color anyway.). I personally like the styling and the seat feel; while the i8 I looked at had the gull wing styling and the side panels were very edgy, getting in and out wasn't a joy, the NSX seemed like something you could get in and have the supercar power with the reliably comfy feel of a nice sedan you'd otherwise be driving every day.

However, it seems that there are a large number of these still out in the field and discounts galore; if indeed the '18s are manufacture to order, it may keep these from depreciating as fast, although there are already several used ones on cars.com.

Opinions on whether to try to take advantage of the deals and steals, or to continue to wait to see if the '17 inventory continues to be around and they get even more desperate with pricing? I don't obviously need to buy right now, and while I love the car, there are plenty of other options out there. The reason I loved my old NSX (and my old 3000gt years ago) was it was something you could enjoy and drive every day, even if you were just going to Costco. A Hurrican or 911 just doesn't have that appeal, they're fun, but not everyday enjoyable. Plus in many of these cars, like the Mercedes or Lotus et al you can tolerate the seat for about 100 miles and then you need to go to the chiropractor.

I have to admit, nice car or not, seeing these deep discounts is a bit scary in terms of even reasonable short term depreciation.

 

[gaymondleerpv]

"I love the look and feel of the new NSX (I wasn't allowed to drive the one here in town because this dealership, to be honest, lacks salesmanship, "it might get a rock chip!", and I didn't like the interior color anyway.). I personally like the styling and the seat feel; while the i8 I looked at had the gull wing styling and the side panels were very edgy, getting in and out wasn't a joy, the NSX seemed like something you could get in and have the supercar power with the reliably comfy feel of a nice sedan you'd otherwise be driving every day."

It's as comfy as my Lexus LX570 unless I need a nap waiting for my daughters classes. Havent had to sleep in it yet but Ive slept in the 91 nsx and did ok. It's more quiet than the Lex as well. Pull to stop sign, twist the dial to go to quiet mode. Light turns green, step on gas and 2 turns of the knob and back to sport + mode

"However, it seems that there are a large number of these still out in the field and discounts galore; if indeed the '18s are manufacture to order, it may keep these from depreciating as fast, although there are already several used ones on cars.com.

Opinions on whether to try to take advantage of the deals and steals, or to continue to wait to see if the '17 inventory continues to be around and they get even more desperate with pricing? I don't obviously need to buy right now, and while I love the car, there are plenty of other options out there. The reason I loved my old NSX (and my old 3000gt years ago) was it was something you could enjoy and drive every day, even if you were just going to Costco. A Hurrican or 911 just doesn't have that appeal, they're fun, but not everyday enjoyable. Plus in many of these cars, like the Mercedes or Lotus et al you can tolerate the seat for about 100 miles and then you need to go to the chiropractor.

I have to admit, nice car or not, seeing these deep discounts is a bit scary in terms of even reasonable short term depreciation.

Definitely comfortable, I dont have enough seat time yet but a 911 is good for a costco run and a boxster is even better with front and rear trunks and passenger seat. I like porsche seats, hate Lambo seats if more than 120 miles of driving without stopping. All cars will depreciate but at this level a lot of depreciation is taken care of with the discount. I love the car, dont plan on ever selling so value is unimportant to me but with production levels this low I cant really see it dropping more than say 30k-40k and that's what you would lose on a ~$100k bmw/porsche/mercedes in 3 yrs or less. As long as the car is like the original in terms of reliability it's a long term keeper for me. The looks are growing on me. If you buy a base car in the 120k-130k I dont see it being a sub 70k car and if you buy a loaded 1 it isnt going to lose half the value like bimmer/mercedes in 3 years. I was actually more worried that prices would stabilize and not drop due to low production so it didnt make sense for me to buy used in a few years just to save 20k-30k and have no warranty and have to bring maintenance up to date

 

[Space Truckin]

Where's the Bottom Part Deux

So it seems after posing the original question nearly two months ago, we have witnessed an uptick in sales albeit with a huge "incentive" from the mother ship Acura. I visited 2 local dealers yesterday and both seemed uncaring/ unresponsive to serious negotiations on NSX's which have been on their respective floors for over 8 months . It quickly became apparent after talking with both sales mangers that going forward you will not see any NSX's on showroom floors for my 18 , sans of course the "rare" special order (not a good sign moving forward) waiting for delivery. A quick check of internet sites shows roughly 180-190 new NSX's and 40-50 used NSX's still available depending on what site you choose to believe. I will pose the question now, is it Acura, the dealerships (huge capital investment for the rights to sell and service the new NSX) or the NSX itself or is it DONE? I believe people who paid MSRP and ADM are scratching their head wondering what happened in such a relatively short time period. As of Friday evening I was approved by Acura on a 3 yr lease :tickled_pink: (the absolute only way to get the NSX, PERIOD), docs are being sent to me via Fedex Monday and we will receive our new NSX on Friday 10/27/17 :biggrin:. I will start a new thread once the new baby is home...

 

[Bricks and Bio]

I just visited cars.com and only saw 158 new ones listed, not 180-190.

Dealers tend to have a lot of dough, so the amount tied up in 1 or 2 in inventory is certainly not efficient use of capital, but isn't going to put them out of business.

I tend to believe they want the car on the floor to spice up things.

I am just happy that Acura did something to move some metal. The car is the same, but with an improved value equation. The sales action is based on an expectation that this discount gift won't be around forever.

Could you add some detail regarding your point on leasing?

I plan to keep the car at least 10 years and after production ends, I expect the following for the Gen 2 cars to parallel that of Gen 1 cars.

We all know that Acura and the dealerships hurt themselves and the program (car was late, lacking sufficient customization, features, dealers gouged, and the market contained lots of delightful cars to pick from at this price point and higher).

The capital investment didn't put many dealers off from going into the program.

 

[Space Truckin]

Dependent on who choose to believe NSX new 185 NSX used 49...FWIW


https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inven...ue&sortType=undefined&sortDirection=undefined

As far as lease vs buy, $5K down with Acura on hook for future value vs $30k to whatever $ and already the NSX has depreciated by a minimum of 20% (btw way my deal is coming in at damn near 30% off)....seems to be a no brainer...JM2C

 

[Bricks and Bio]

I find cargurus to be a goofy site.

Won't let me do a nationwide search.

The key point is that the incentive has pulled the new car inventory number down 30 or more cars. The October sales number will be entertaining.

 

[Space Truckin]

If you look at link posted, it is a nationwide search....

 

[gaymondleerpv]

Dependent on who choose to believe NSX new 185 NSX used 49...FWIW

As far as lease vs buy, $5K down with Acura on hook for future value vs $30k to whatever $ and already the NSX has depreciated by a minimum of 20% (btw way my deal is coming in at damn near 30% off)....seems to be a no brainer...JM2C

Space Truckin we think alike. I'm buying out my car at the end of the lease at the lower of current stated residual or market value. Win both ways, low down, low monthly, quick and easy decision for an impulse buy (for me impulse buy). Congrats! What color and where did you end up getting the car? I can wait for your thread after delivery